From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: CVS is the `released version' Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:43:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <877irhn4yh.fsf@mid.thomas-huehn.de> <87k5vhjjv4.fsf@mid.thomas-huehn.de> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1178797449 8359 80.91.229.12 (10 May 2007 11:44:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:44:09 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 10 13:44:04 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Hm73s-0004fo-HU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 13:43:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm7BB-0000RT-2o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 07:51:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm7B6-0000Ic-I5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 07:51:24 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm7B5-0000Fo-Iz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 07:51:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Hm7B5-0000F6-A1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 07:51:23 -0400 Original-Received: from cpe-69-205-32-54.nycap.res.rr.com ([69.205.32.54] helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Hm73l-0000A9-MQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 May 2007 07:43:49 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Thu, 10 May 2007 11:43:44 +0000 (UTC) In-reply-to: <87k5vhjjv4.fsf@mid.thomas-huehn.de> (message from =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thomas_H=FChn?= on Thu, 10 May 2007 08:03:27 +0200) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:70748 Archived-At: Are you willing to state on the Emacs web site which day's Emacs is "good enough" for regular use? That must be updated regularly, of course. The issue is not whether I am willing, the issue is whether an expert would be willing. I think it would be hard. As David Kastrup says It takes expertise to know which might be the best date. There is no doubt that nowadays There are quite a few more Emacs users out there than those who read CVS commits ... That is true. I think the real question is moral. We live in an age of professionals. Often they know more, a huge amount more, than enthusiastic amateurs. Professional programmers know more about programming than people who type reports about something else. The moral issue is whether amateurs should give up power to professionals? When amateurs give way to professionals, willy-nilly, they promote a scalable, but awkward social form which gives those on the top more power than those on the bottom. Consider RMS and GNU Emacs as examples. The alternative, which I know RMS seeks even though he is poor at it, is a world in which professionals and amateurs cooperate. That does not mean that professionals do not do their jobs (unless you presume that professionals are always on top). But it does mean a different model. As for specific points: > That presumes most people are not going to contribute, which may > well be true. I don't see this at all ... Most of the people I know who are still using Emacs 21 do not contribute. Often they don't know how to. As far as I can see, contribution involves interest and attention. Most people I know are no more interested in software development than they are in road construction. (I think they ought to be interested in both, but that is another issue.) Their attention is directed towards other people or towards non-peopled activities that have nothing to do with either software development or road construction. > The argument may be that people should find it easy to > contribute. And they can't contribute if there contributions never end up on a user's computer. But if the contribution does end up on a user's computer ... that is the moral argument. The moral position is that users fetch a current release. Except for instabilities which a professional detects (and talks about), the release for users will be today's or yesterdays, or since you may not restart Emacs very often, last month's. I am not saying that GNU Emacs fits this model. For one, no good professional tells amateurs that "today's update is bad" for them (but possibly good for professionals). However, I am saying that the claim that `contributions never end up on a user's computer' is true only if you presume that users fetch or are forced to fetch big numbered releases. > But others do not think of those [i.e., daily] updates as releases. Word games don't help in the current situation. It is not a word game. In order to avoid problems, many previously hierarchical organizations, purely hierarchical, have instituted `matrix management' and the like. (Most of the solutions, I think, are crazy; but they indicate felt problems.) In the United States, I frequently see references to `pointy haired bosses'. These are references to a character in a cartoon. Among other things, that cartoon attacks professional managers because they cannot contribute technically about that which they know nothing. Nonetheless, such bosses had to have known how to become managers. -- Robert J. Chassell GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 bob@rattlesnake.com bob@gnu.org http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc