From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20060715221432.GA1252@muc.de> <20060716090816.GA1167@muc.de> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153140536 3304 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 12:48:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:48:56 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 14:48:52 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SWh-0007Qm-6e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 14:48:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SWg-00057t-P8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:48:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SWT-00057L-UD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:48:29 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SWS-000579-R5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:48:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2SWS-000576-NX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:48:28 -0400 Original-Received: from [69.168.108.225] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G2SZ7-0007r8-Re for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:51:14 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:48:11 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:40:57 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57176 Archived-At: ... the question is about beginners. Isn't it clear that nearly all beginners use the mouse? Yes, nowadays, nearly all beginners use the mouse. But that is not the question. The questions are * based on their previous knowledge, will beginners (who are sighted and using their vision and their hands) understand the use of the mouse in a plain Emacs or will they expect to use the mouse in a different way? Presuming that beginners single click (double clicking fails) on `Help', they will see the `Emacs Tutorial' listed as the first option and may click on that line. (You have to read the Emacs manual to learn about going to the Info help. The Emacs manual is nine lines down the `Help' menu.) The only change to Tutorial, the Emacs manual, or the Info help that I would suggest is writing these two sentences at or near the beginning: For many actions, you can click on a topic with a mouse button. This tutorial focuses on the more efficient key sequences. * based on their previous knowledge, will beginners unlearn inefficent habits and begin to use key sequences appropriately? I hope so. But according to my experience and all I have read, it is harder for people to unlearn what they learned previously than to learn rightly the first time. And when undertaking a change, we must work with what people already know. The one thing we should never do is encourage the wrong habits. The two answers mean we should not teach inefficent habits and we should recognize that most beginners will already know conventions for use of the mice. (Indeed, some will have learned one set of conventions so well they will call that set `intuitive'!) -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc