From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Getting more info on a variable in Customize buffers Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:26:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <003e01c4f371$34df4d00$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1105025250 12220 80.91.229.6 (6 Jan 2005 15:27:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:27:30 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 06 16:27:18 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CmZXg-00054B-00 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:27:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CmZiz-0008Ni-HW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:38:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CmZiL-0008EO-Sb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:38:18 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CmZiJ-0008DH-Ts for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:38:16 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CmZiJ-0008DD-Rs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:38:15 -0500 Original-Received: from [69.168.110.189] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CmZWu-0006aG-W4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:26:29 -0500 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:26:22 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Per Abrahamsen on Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:06:21 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31955 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31955 As Per Abrahamsen said Unfortunately, expert users are much more likely to provide feedback then casual users. Therefore, free software user interfaces tend to ... cram way to much information and functionality into the UI, scaring off beginners and casual users. Or, sometimes `experts' push too much the other way. This happened with Gnome a year or two ago. The `simple' interface did not let me configure it as I liked. (I don't know whether the bug still exists, since I have not used that window manager since.) The solution is straightforward: always provide an `Advanced customization' option. After you have created a non-expert interface, which can only be done by asking at least five non-experts to sit down and work with the interface, you can provide a more advanced option. (No one on this list is non-expert enough, not even me. I don't know five non-experts who would be willing to sit down. Employing non-experts is the kind of action I had expected some large company that sells hardware or services to fund, but none have except for Sun with one of the interfaces. This befuddles me, since it is clearly in companies' profit-oriented interest to increase the value of a `complementary product'. I do not understand MBAs.) Since the customization commands are designed for Emacs novices and for experts who mostly modify their .emacs files but who may prefer to have it modified for them in occasional cases, as with faces, the `M-x customize' interface and its siblings must be clear and easy. - It should show how everything is related, so novices can learn. - It should tell novices that the interface writes to their .emacs file (and of course the name should be one of the top customizations, even though most will not use it -- this is part of the educational task that customization has). - It should tell the default for each item, the various theme values, if any, the previous value, if any, and the current value. Speaking of `expert friendly software', Per went on to say Which is fine in general, expert friendly software is very important. Yes, very true. ... Drew Adams feedback seems to build on the mistaken belief that Customize is the preferred way to customize Emacs. Which is far from the truth. I am not sure Drew thinks that, but Per is right about the mistaken belief. A better way to customize Emacs is to write Emacs Lisp. The customize feature is supposed to be only a help for people who want to see automatically written Emacs Lisp code in their .emacs file. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc