From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta Subject: Re: Permission to use portions of the recent GNU Emacs Manual Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:16:47 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <878y84t52h.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <01c4e091$Blat.v2.2.2$b6626d00@zahav.net.il> <878y81a8ql.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1103034005 18503 80.91.229.6 (14 Dec 2004 14:20:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:20:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 14 15:19:58 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CeDWw-0008KS-00 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:19:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeDh5-0000Tg-Mj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:30:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CeDeg-0008Qq-NP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:27:58 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CeDef-0008QO-Va for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:27:58 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CeDef-0008Q3-M6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:27:57 -0500 Original-Received: from [69.168.110.189] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CeDU8-0007Xc-Hi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:17:04 -0500 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:16:47 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: kfogel@red-bean.com In-reply-to: <878y81a8ql.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> (message from Karl Fogel on 13 Dec 2004 20:56:02 -0600) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31114 gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:17460 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31114 There's been much contrasting of the GFDL w/ the GPL, or the GFDL with a "Creative Commons license with commercial restriction". I've never meant to suggest either of those, but rather licenses similar to the Creative Commons Plain Attribution or ShareAlike. Yes, I understand. Unfortunately, you are not the one choosing the license to apply. I have seen items that ought to be free put under a "Creative Commons license with commercial restriction". We do not need to convince anyone who is already using a free license. They are not harming us or others. (Note: I'm not advocating using an actual Creative Commons license, I agree. Neither am I. Indeed, I think it was wrong to give free and non-free licenses the same initial name, that of `Creative Commons'. The language is confusing. Rhetoric becomes very important in persuading people who mostly are not listening, who do not care much, and who are not professionals in the subject matter, such as music creation or software. For Emacs, what advantages does the GFDL have over (say) Creative Commons Plain Attribution or Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike? The two reasons I said before: first, that when FSF is dealing with the actual licenses of others, those two do not count. The license that counts is restricted. Please remember, neither you nor I are defining this issue. Second, as I said above, when dealing with strangers, language counts. Again, this is only about the application of the GFDL to Emacs, *not* about the GFDL in general. Right. This is what I am talking about: the application of the GFDL to Emacs. Note that my elisions are telling: I am not talking about the application of the GFDL to Emacs in a small community of like-minded programmers, as some thought the Emacs community was 20 years ago. Nor I am talking about the application of the GFDL to Emacs in a larger community that is harmless to Emacs. Unhappily, I am talking about the application of the GFDL to Emacs in the current world, its default circumstances. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc