From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta Subject: Re: Permission to use portions of the recent GNU Emacs Manual Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:59:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <87llc49kn1.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20041212125027.024c6900@mail.comcast.net> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1102903281 16263 80.91.229.6 (13 Dec 2004 02:01:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:01:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 13 03:01:12 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CdfWR-0006sr-00 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:01:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CdfgV-0001P6-Ty for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:11:35 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CdfgE-0001OW-DB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:11:18 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CdfgD-0001O0-Db for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:11:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CdfgD-0001Nx-81 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:11:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [69.168.110.189] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CdfVT-0006lc-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:00:11 -0500 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:59:20 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: Andy Piper In-reply-to: <6.2.0.14.2.20041212125027.024c6900@mail.comcast.net> (message from Andy Piper on Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:00:51 -0800) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31050 gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:17430 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31050 At 11:43 AM 12/12/2004, Robert J. Chassell wrote: >Why is it not possible? Are you suggesting that the XEmacs people >lack proper papers for contributions? If so, this means they cannot >ever ensure that the lawyers of a hostile organization with plenty of >money will tell the organization's leaders that the software is legal. >That is what I think you are suggesting. That's either amusing or insulting. XEmacs explicitly does not collect papers because we believe that hinders development of the product. ... To me you sound as if your primary concern is in the `development of the product' rather than its use by strangers who care nothing about software. As a technique, you have made yourself hostage to anyone who is hostile to you and has lots of money. That is what is meant by `does not collect papers'. You can hope to be perceived as irrelevant, in which case no one will attack you. That is fine. But that also means you are doing no good for society as a whole. >This means that the XEmacs project is rhetorically ineffective. ... Please do not make assumptions about we are or are not concerned with. If anything the XEmacs project is much more concerned with these things than the FSF appears to be. Well, please undertake actions that show you being effective as salesmen. I am not persuaded of that. The FSF strategy is not very powerful, but I cannot think of anything more effective, considering the nature of the people who are part of GNU. Please show me how you have been better at affecting poltical and business change in Washington, Paris, and Berlin. I dislike this whole need for `papers', police support of legal monopolies, and developers' hinderances; I want to see this harm ended. I want to see more software freedom. ... So you can protect the code from big, bad companies - I highly doubt that anyone in the real world actually cares anymore. They do care. That is why some companies lobbied for laws like the DMCA. That is why SCO got funding which they have used, among other actions, to make statements that confused decision-makers who know nothing about software. Only the irrelevant are untouched. I personally believe that the FSF's approach has contributed to making Emacs (and XEmacs) largely irrelevant today. .... Perhaps GNU/Linux is irrelevant, but neither Microsoft nor IBM think so. I do not think so. As for Emacs, it may be a failed project; or it may be an integrated user environment that is less interesting than a graphic user interface; or it may be doing as well as a programmers' tool can be expected. In any case, Emacs is not the GNU project. To focus on Emacs when we are talking about licenses suggests to me that you are more concerned with the development of that product than with changing the political and business patterns of societies. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc