From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Permission to use portions of the recent GNU Emacs Manual Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:46:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <87llc49kn1.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1102884795 21443 80.91.229.6 (12 Dec 2004 20:53:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:53:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, xemacs-beta@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Sun Dec 12 21:53:07 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org ([199.184.165.135] ident=ident-user) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CdaiJ-0000Io-00 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:53:07 +0100 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBCKlv19003913; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:48:08 -0500 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBCKluOY003907 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:56 -0500 Original-Received: (from xemacweb@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iBCKlu0j003906 for xemacs-beta-mailman@xemacs.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:56 -0500 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBCKltVl003892 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:55 -0500 Original-Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iBCKlpHq003889 for xemacweb@tux.org; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:51 -0500 Original-Received: from rattlesnake.com (69-168-110-189.sbtnvt.adelphia.net [69.168.110.189]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBCKlpe6003872 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:51 -0500 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:46:38 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: David Kastrup In-reply-to: (message from David Kastrup on Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:59:23 +0100) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-XEmacs-List: beta X-BeenThere: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: XEmacs Beta Testers List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Errors-To: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:17426 gmane.emacs.devel:31042 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31042 > > To enable the FSF to be a `do what we do organization' rather than a > > `don't do what we do, do what we say' organization. > > a) what precise purpose does the GFDL achieve for the GNU Emacs manual > that is not achieved by it being under the GPL (your explanation is > mostly about the contrast to Public Domain and/or BSD)? > > To be a `do what we do, not a do what we say' organization. How does this hand-waving address the difference between GPL and GFDL? The GFDL is designed to enable commercial publishers who print on paper or other material entity to survive. The GPL is not. The idea is that software development will be paid for by hardware companies, by trade associations, by governments, by universities, and by programmers whose material income does come from the project at hand. In other words, cost recovery for someone writing code is, or should be, different than cost recovery for someone getting attention for and printing a book written by another. At the moment, proprietary software companies and many documentation publishers depend on the same method of cost recovery, which is to say monopoly pricing enforced (ultimately, not most of the time) by police. Proprietary restrictions hinder both software creation and documentation writing. That is why I have said so often that the purpose of the GFDL is to provide an alternative to a `Creative Commons license with a commercial restriction' or similar license. As for a single license: I personally would like to see one rather than two or many, but I am not sure that is possible. Laws are written mostly by lawyers. Businesses that use software are often run by people who know nothing about software (and the business may have nothing to do with software except to use it as a tool -- it may train horses or something like that). Perhaps one license is possible. Then again, perhaps not. Incidentally, a great advantages of both the GPL and the GFDL is that they can be read, perhaps with difficulty, by non-lawyers, and mean more or less the same thing to them as to lawyers. (I am told that the main legality a non-lawyer like me needs to learn is that `derivative works' are defined by judges, most of whom know nothing about software. The meaning of `derivative work' cannot be specified in a license.) Readability means that programmers who do not wish to learn much law can grok the major interfaces between them and the wider world. Imagine if a programmer could not understand these interfaces without becoming a different person -- imagine if a programmer were in the same position as a typical politician, the one being unable to understand the interface, the other being unable to understand the software. It is hard enough right now to deal with these issues: doubtless you have noticed that almost all discussion by programmers is addressed to programmers' issues rather than to non-programmers' issues. Imagine it were worse. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc