From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:49:08 +0000 (UTC) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <8765heixvu.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <87ptfkdqss.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <20031122214251.GA14680@fencepost> <874qwuqjzw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <200311241619.hAOGJ6W27027@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200312030147.hB31lUh20316@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <2914-Wed03Dec2003181809+0200-eliz@elta.co.il> <200312040254.hB42sjq25857@raven.dms.auburn.edu> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1070547611 21317 80.91.224.253 (4 Dec 2003 14:20:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 04 15:20:09 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARuKv-0000qo-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:20:09 +0100 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARuKu-0008WA-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:20:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARvCU-0000Qt-2H for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:15:30 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARvBg-0000IG-Db for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:14:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARv7v-0007wp-3A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:11:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.114.245] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARuoC-0002Ew-Kn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 09:50:25 -0500 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:49:08 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: karl@freefriends.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <200312040254.hB42sjq25857@raven.dms.auburn.edu> (message from Luc Teirlinck on Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:54:45 -0600 (CST)) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:18366 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:18366 Luc Teirlinck writes 1. The Info format is "here to stay". It is intended for readers with minimal capabilities and it is important that people can access documentation via these readers. Yes. That is true, but understates Info capabilities: Info is also, at the moment, the single most efficient online help mechanism in existance -- and has been for a generation. Nic and my goal is to improve HTML (via XML) to be as efficient or nearly as efficient as Info was in the 1980s. (Incidentally, Nic, I still cannot send messages to you via either nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk or nferrier@80.168.156.73. Please suggest some other address.) 2. Emacs is not a reader with minimal capabilities. It could use XML to make Emacs info look as pretty as it can be, without paying a price in terms of functionality. This is mixing the Info renderer with an XML renderer. It makes more sense to have them separate. (It helps keep purposes clearer by separating the notion of an `info' mechanism for rendering documents, on line from the `info' format.) Later, if people want to mix the two, someone could write a wrapper so that the reader detects whether the document is in XML format rather than Info format, and, if so, switches to the XML renderer, or whether it is man page format and, if so, switches to the man page renderer. 5. Emacs will still need to be able to handle .info files, if no XML file is available, ... Yes: we currently produce Info, XML, HTML, plain text, and DVI files directly from the Texinfo files and indirectly PS and PDF and maybe others. Info needs to be kept. Unfortunately, the HTML output does not equal Info in efficiency. As I said, Nic and my goal is to improve it via XML. (In this case rather than think of the XML output as a `surface expression' of the Texinfo `deep representation', the XML serves as an `intermediate representation'. But clearly, if Emacs gains an XML renderer, then the XML output from Texinfo acts a surface expression.) (It is rather interesting to consider the historic transformation of Emacs from an environment that displayed nearly everything `literally' to one in which some buffer displays are not literal, but are surface expressions of a different deep representation. Nowadays, we even have a `find-file-literally' command that was not necessary initially. But this is off-topic.) -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc bob@rattlesnake.com