From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.psgml.devel,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Sender: psgml-devel-admin@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: References: <3DFE4E98.1080204@silmaril.ie> <3DFFC29E.4060100@silmaril.ie> <20030112040605.GA26128@gnu.org> <3E25E73F.7070904@silmaril.ie> <200301152332.h0FNWm111368@rum.cs.yale.edu> <3E271D54.4060206@silmaril.ie> Reply-To: bob@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1042807391 9831 80.91.224.249 (17 Jan 2003 12:43:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:43:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: psgml-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZVpv-0002Xx-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:43:03 +0100 Original-Received: from lists.sourceforge.net ([66.35.250.206] helo=sc8-sf-list2.sourceforge.net) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZVzL-0005GM-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:52:47 +0100 Original-Received: from sc8-sf-list1-b.sourceforge.net ([10.3.1.13] helo=sc8-sf-list1.sourceforge.net) by sc8-sf-list2.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZVqu-00014Z-00; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:44:04 -0800 Original-Received: from megalith.rattlesnake.com ([140.186.114.245] helo=localhost) by sc8-sf-list1.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 18ZVqC-0002FU-00 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2003 04:43:20 -0800 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: Peter Flynn In-reply-to: <3E271D54.4060206@silmaril.ie> (message from Peter Flynn on Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:00:04 +0000) Errors-To: psgml-devel-admin@lists.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: psgml-devel@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9-sf.net Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: X-Original-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.psgml.devel:105 gmane.emacs.devel:10805 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:10805 ... The OP's complaint was -- in effect -- that he couldn't care less whether the "SGML" he produced was valid or not ... Here is a possible solution for XML: * If the person provides a DTD use that .... * If the person does *not* provide a DTD use the texinfo.dtd provided in the texinfo-4.3 distribution in makeinfo/texinfo.dtd * Provide and document a simple command to convert an XML document using the texinfo.dtd and the texinfo.xsl to Texinfo. (I am pretty sure a suitable conversion program already exists, but it needs documentation and maybe packaging in a shell script that calls the appropriate ancillary files.) `makeinfo' already provides the option to convert a Texinfo source file to an XML output file with the texinfo.dtd using the --xml option There is a major advantage to making the texinfo.dtd the default; with it, you can convert the source XML (or "deep representation") file to all the various different output (or "surface representation") formats that people use. Here is the argument favoring Texinfo, or a Texinfo-like mark up language, using DocBook as the prime villain, and LaTeX as a secondary. DocBook is a widely used format that has a more complex DTD than texinfo.dtd. (Incidentally, `makeinfo' provides an option to convert a Texinfo source to DocBook, but as said here, depending on how the author writes the document, the reverse may be harder or impossible.) DocBook suffers two major problems, both fatal, neither technical: * DocBook documents are generally harder to read (both by novices and by experts) in their `deep representation' form, before being converted to formats to which readers listen or view. This means it is harder to edit the document. Many people who use interfaces that hide the looks of the document do not perceive this as a problem because they write for that single interface or `surface representation'. This leads us to the second, fatal problem: * Writers often use DocBook features. Indeed, this is something you would expect and generally welcome! The features were designed to be used! Unfortunately, DocBook was designed for people who are situationally sighted -- not blind, not driving a car, not working on something to which they must apply visual attention. In this sense, DocBook is like LaTeX. The problem, and this is the key, is that most people who write DocBook documents fail to write them for a wide range of readers. People who write for Texinfo also often fail to consider their different kinds of readers, but Texinfo discourages `high res visual presumptions'. Texinfo does a better job of ensuring that authors write documents that are readable and listenable by everyone than does the alternative, which for DocBook or LaTeX is to ask authors to describe their picture, an action which may take `a thousand words', in addition to displaying the picture for those who can view it. Technically, you can write a document using DocBook or LaTeX that converts well to widely different output representations, not just to one output representation. The problem is, enough people don't. Every time you write, please write for the following readers: * the blind person, whether permanently or situationally blind, who is listening to your work using Emacspeak * the person reading your document on a Web site, who has a fast Internet connection * the person reading your document on a Web site who has a slow Internet connection to your Web site and who is paying by the downloaded byte * the person reading your document efficiently, navigating around to parts quickly * the person reading your document on paper that has been printed by a high resolution printer * the person working on a slow machine or over a slow connection, who is reading your work, which is coming to him or her at less than 300 baud. (And before those of you who are fortunate say that slowness is obsolete and never occurs nowadays, please note that that in my experience, slow connections still occur, even though most of the time, I have a 40kb/s telephone connection.) And, yes, as I was typing that last sentence, my Internet connection vanished, my dialer redialed and a voice said, "If you would like to make a call, please hang up and try again" .... Awkward connections occur everywhere. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc bob@gnu.org ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Thawte.com Understand how to protect your customers personal information by implementing SSL on your Apache Web Server. Click here to get our FREE Thawte Apache Guide: http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0029en