Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Karl Eichwalder]

"Stefan Monnier" <monnier+gnu/emacs/pretest@RUM.cs.yale.edu> writes:

>> In any case, this would be easy to fix in psgml.el (is anyone listening ?):
>> just be sure to unbind (define-key ... nil) all of the C-c C-? prefixes in
>> sgml-mode-map before (re)using them as prefix keys later on.  Better do this
>> on too many keys than too few.
>
> First, I simply think that define-key should not fail in the above
> way at all (i.e. rebinding an existing prefix key to a command,
> thus turning a prefix key into a non-prefix key, should work just fine
> because it is a perfectly acceptable operation).

AFAIK (21.2), define-key still isn't able to rebind an existing prefix
key; at least I failed to load psgml when sgml-mode coming with Emacs
was loaded first (the problem was brought to my attention by Martin
Vidner, thanks!).  I don't know whether that's a bug or a feature;
problably a feature since the Elisp manual says:

     Every prefix of KEY must be a prefix key (i.e., bound to a keymap)
     or undefined; otherwise an error is signaled.  If some prefix of
     KEY is undefined, then `define-key' defines it as a prefix key so
     that the rest of KEY can be defined as specified.

My emacs lisp skills are limited, but I'd like to sort out this
problem; Stefan made these proposals to fix the problem in a sane
manner:

> Other ways to fix the problem:
> - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two packages can
>   coexist peacefully.
> - Explicitly (unload-feature 'sgml-mode) at the beginning of psgml's code.

The second proposal looks rather heavy, but easy to implement.  I guess
some users won't like it, since they might want to make use of the HTML
support provided by sgml-mode.

The first way would mean you will have to change all the files all over
and in the end user customizations will be broken and all users will get
used to new commands: M-x psgml-... instead of M-x sgml-... 

What do you think?  Especially what's your position on this issue,
Lennart?  By all means we must avoid a fork!

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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Stefan Monnier]

> > Other ways to fix the problem:
> > - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two packages can
> >   coexist peacefully.
> > - Explicitly (unload-feature 'sgml-mode) at the beginning of psgml's code.
> 
> The second proposal looks rather heavy, but easy to implement.  I guess
> some users won't like it, since they might want to make use of the HTML
> support provided by sgml-mode.

I don't think that psgml and sgml-mode can coexist, right now, so loading
psgml prevents you from using its sgml-mode's HTML support whether you
unload sgml-mode or not.
The problem with unloading sgml-mode is rather that I find unload-feature
somewhat brittle.  If it works, it's probably a good quick fix.

Renaming in psgml is of course preferable.

> The first way would mean you will have to change all the files all over
> and in the end user customizations will be broken and all users will get
> used to new commands: M-x psgml-... instead of M-x sgml-... 

You could still obey some sgml-... variables for backward-compatibility
so that old user settings still work.


	Stefan



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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Kevin Rodgers]

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> "Stefan Monnier" <monnier+gnu/emacs/pretest@RUM.cs.yale.edu> writes:
...

> My emacs lisp skills are limited, but I'd like to sort out this
> problem; Stefan made these proposals to fix the problem in a sane
> manner:
> 
> 
>>Other ways to fix the problem:
>>- Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two packages can
>>  coexist peacefully.
>>- Explicitly (unload-feature 'sgml-mode) at the beginning of psgml's code.

This is a long standing problem.  Here's how I tried to hack around it:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:gnu.emacs.help&selm=3BAB7A26.1A902239%40ihs.com





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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Richard Stallman]

    AFAIK (21.2), define-key still isn't able to rebind an existing prefix
    key; at least I failed to load psgml when sgml-mode coming with Emacs
    was loaded first (the problem was brought to my attention by Martin
    Vidner, thanks!).

If there is really a bug here, please supply a *precise test case*
so we can move from mere discussion to productive debugging.


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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Richard Stallman]

    > Other ways to fix the problem:
    > - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two packages can
    >   coexist peacefully.

That is definitely the right way.

    > - Explicitly (unload-feature 'sgml-mode) at the beginning of psgml's code.

That is a very bad idea.


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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Galen Boyer]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, rms@gnu.org wrote:
>     AFAIK (21.2), define-key still isn't able to rebind an existing
>     prefix key; at least I failed to load psgml when sgml-mode coming
>     with Emacs was loaded first (the problem was brought to my
>     attention by Martin Vidner, thanks!).
> 
> If there is really a bug here, please supply a *precise test case*
> so we can move from mere discussion to productive debugging.

Make this your only entries in your .emacs (Modify the path so Emacs can
find your psgml.el)

    (require 'sgml-mode)
    (load-file "c:/emacs/site-lisp/packages/xae/psgml/psgml.el")

Now, try to start Emacs.  You should recieve something similar to the
following message.

    (C:\emacs\emacs-21.1\bin\emacs.exe)
    Loading c:/emacs/site-lisp/packages/xae/psgml/psgml.el (source)...


    An error has occurred while loading `c:/emacs/home/.emacs':

    error: "Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters"

    To ensure normal operation, you should investigate the cause
    of the error in your initialization file and remove it.  Start
    Emacs with the `--debug-init' option to view a complete error
    backtrace

The problem is caused precisely because:

sqml-mode sets part of sgml-mode-map with
    (define-key map "\C-c\C-f" 'sgml-skip-tag-forward)

psgml-mode sets part of sgml-mode-map with
    (define-key sgml-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-e" 'sgml-fold-element)
    (define-key sgml-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-r" 'sgml-fold-region)
    (define-key sgml-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-s" 'sgml-fold-subelement)
    (define-key sgml-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-x" 'sgml-expand-element)

These clash.

-- 
Galen deForest Boyer
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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Karl Eichwalder]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two packages can
>     >   coexist peacefully.
>
> That is definitely the right way.

Thanks for advise.  Lennart, do you agree with this change?  I like to
offer help to get this job done (preparing a psgml test release,
testing, documentation).


Kevin Rodgers <kevinr@ihs.com> writes:

> This is a long standing problem.  Here's how I tried to hack around it:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:gnu.emacs.help&selm=3BAB7A26.1A902239%40ihs.com

Thanks for the pointer!  You wrote:

> Von:Kevin Rodgers (kevinr@ihs.com)
> Betrifft:Re: Blocking DTD usage with PSGML-mode
> Newsgroups:gnu.emacs.help
> Datum:2001-09-21 10:34:22 PST

[...]

> Here's a crazy way to do that: evaluate this after psgml is loaded (but
> before sgml-mode is loaded):

Okay, the tricky part is tp load psgml early enough; this sequence
seems to work for me:

(eval-after-load 'psgml
  ;; Kevin Rodgers <kevinr@ihs.com> in gnu.emacs.help,
  ;; 2001-09-21 10:34:22 PST
  (mapatoms (lambda (symbol)
	      (if (string-match "\\`sgml\\>" (symbol-name symbol))
		  (let ((psgml-symbol (intern (concat "p" (symbol-name symbol)))))
		    (if (boundp symbol)
			(set psgml-symbol (symbol-value symbol)))
		    (if (fboundp symbol)
			(fset psgml-symbol (symbol-function symbol)))
		    (setplist psgml-symbol (symbol-plist symbol))
		    (unintern symbol))))))

(defun ke-psgml-html-mode ()
  "Load psgml first."
  (require 'psgml)
  (html-mode))

(setq auto-mode-alist
      (cons ' ("\\.s?html?\\'" . ke-psgml-html-mode) auto-mode-alist))


Now users have to change all their local variables sections from the
"sgml" namespace:

    <!-- Keep this comment at the end of the file
    Local variables:
    mode: sgml
    sgml-indent-step:1
    End:
    -->

to "psgml" one:

    <!-- Keep this comment at the end of the file
    Local variables:
    mode: psgml
    psgml-indent-step:1
    End:
    -->

But settings in .emacs must continue to use "sgml", or course.

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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Miles Bader]

Karl Eichwalder <keichwa@gmx.net> writes:
> Thanks for advise.  Lennart, do you agree with this change?  I like to
> offer help to get this job done (preparing a psgml test release,
> testing, documentation).

You _are_ going to just change the sources, right...?

BTW, the `symbol copying' hook you showed doesn't seem like it would
work very well, since the already-loaded code is going to still point to
all the _old_ symbols (now uninterned), not the newly created `psgml-'
ones.  So if a user then changes a `psgml-' variable, the psgml code
simply won't notice.  [perhaps a way around this, at least for
variables, is to use the new emacs `defvaralias' mechanism]

-Miles
-- 
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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Karl Eichwalder]

Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:

> You _are_ going to just change the sources, right...?

Yes, if Lennart who happily still maintains psgml wants me to do so.

> BTW, the `symbol copying' hook you showed doesn't seem like it would
> work very well, since the already-loaded code is going to still point to
> all the _old_ symbols (now uninterned), not the newly created `psgml-'
> ones.  So if a user then changes a `psgml-' variable, the psgml code
> simply won't notice.

Bad.  Kevin, will you please comment on it?

> [perhaps a way around this, at least for variables, is to use the new
> emacs `defvaralias' mechanism]

I'll have to investigate.

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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Kevin Rodgers]

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> Miles Bader <miles@lsi.nec.co.jp> writes:
>>BTW, the `symbol copying' hook you showed doesn't seem like it would
>>work very well, since the already-loaded code is going to still point to
>>all the _old_ symbols (now uninterned), not the newly created `psgml-'
>>ones.  So if a user then changes a `psgml-' variable, the psgml code
>>simply won't notice.
> 
> Bad.  Kevin, will you please comment on it?


Miles is correct.  That approach was just a kludge I suggested to help a user
work around the problem.  Using unintern was easier than replacing all the
sgml-* symbols in the psgml-* symbols' value, function, and plist slots.

-- 
<a href="mailto:&lt;kevin.rodgers&#64;ihs.com&gt;">Kevin Rodgers</a>





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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Lennart Staflin]

On torsdag, dec 12, 2002, at 07:34 Europe/Stockholm, Karl Eichwalder 
wrote:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two 
>>> packages can
>>>   coexist peacefully.
>>
>> That is definitely the right way.
>
> Thanks for advise.  Lennart, do you agree with this change?  I like to
> offer help to get this job done (preparing a psgml test release,
> testing, documentation).
>

First: the particular problem in the subject line is, I believe, fixed 
in the latest version of PSGML (1.2.5).

Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs 
distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be 
as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. In the 
first case no renaming is needed or desirable. In the second case I 
think a renaming will be necessary.
I don't think it is that much work to do a renaming, but it will break 
existing extensions and customizations. It should be considered a major 
change.

//Lennart



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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Felix Gatzemeier]

Hello!

Just throwing my 'vote' in: yes to both.  Renaming is desirable, and
it is a major change.  It's a cleanup that may be considered overdue,
and I (as having put together some customizations and extensions)
consider it worth my effort (propagating the renaming to my c&es) to
have it fixed.


>>>>> "Lennart" == Lennart Staflin <lenst@lysator.liu.se> writes:

    Lennart> On torsdag, dec 12, 2002, at 07:34 Europe/Stockholm, Karl
    Lennart> Eichwalder wrote:

    >> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

    >>>> - Use `psgml-' as prefix rather than `sgml-' so that the two
    >>>> packages can coexist peacefully.

    Richard> That is definitely the right way.

    Karl> Thanks for advise.  Lennart, do you agree with this change?

[...]

    Lennart> Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML
    Lennart> in the Emacs distribution. I don't know the status of
    Lennart> this. But it could either be as a replacement of the
    Lennart> current sgml-mode or in addition to it. In the first case
    Lennart> no renaming is needed or desirable. In the second case I
    Lennart> think a renaming will be necessary.  I don't think it is
    Lennart> that much work to do a renaming, but it will break
    Lennart> existing extensions and customizations. It should be
    Lennart> considered a major change.



Best wishes,

-- 
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Office Phone: (0(049)241)80-21313
Disclaimer: I do not speak for anyone but myself.
Please do not send me mails containing documents in proprietary
formats (such as Microsoft Word) unless you really need to.


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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Karl Eichwalder]

Felix Gatzemeier <fxg@i3.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Just throwing my 'vote' in: yes to both.  Renaming is desirable, and
> it is a major change.

Yes, I'm also all for it.

> It's a cleanup that may be considered overdue, and I (as having put
> together some customizations and extensions) consider it worth my
> effort (propagating the renaming to my c&es) to have it fixed.

As Stefan pointed out, we can keep some (many?) variables as aliasses
for compatibility.  Thus I think renaming "sgml-" to "psgml-" is
possible.

More interesting question: Can we add it to stock emacs? I'd like to
help with such an integration.

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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Richard Stallman]

    Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs 
    distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be 
    as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. In the 
    first case no renaming is needed or desirable. In the second case I 
    think a renaming will be necessary.

Unless we want to eliminate the current SGML mode,
we would be supporting both side by side, which means
a renaming is necessary.


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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Richard Stallman]

    More interesting question: Can we add it to stock emacs? I'd like to
    help with such an integration.

If lots of users like PSGML mode, then I think we would be glad to add it.


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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs 
>     distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be 
>     as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. 

Replacement. I've been advocating this ever since psgml reached stable
*years* ago. sgml-mode alone is useless and vastly confusing for the
beginner, as it precisely does *NOT* implement SGML editing, only the
recognition of pointy brackets -- useful 15 years ago but not now!

>     In the 
>     first case no renaming is needed or desirable. In the second case I 
>     think a renaming will be necessary.
> 
> Unless we want to eliminate the current SGML mode,

Yes. Kill it immediately and replace with psgml-mode. Make sgml-mode an
alias for psgml-mode.

Please. In perpetuating sgml-mode we are making the Emacs distro look
very silly.

///Peter



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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Stefan Monnier]

> Richard Stallman wrote:
> >     Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs 
> >     distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be 
> >     as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. 
> 
> Replacement. I've been advocating this ever since psgml reached stable
> *years* ago. sgml-mode alone is useless and vastly confusing for the
> beginner, as it precisely does *NOT* implement SGML editing, only the
> recognition of pointy brackets -- useful 15 years ago but not now!

Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.

> Please. In perpetuating sgml-mode we are making the Emacs distro look
> very silly.

Given the amount of complaint about PSGML "not indenting and not
highlighting" we have seen on gnu.emacs.help I'd say that the lack
of DTD-less support has been a problem for a long time now.
Yes, PSGML should be included in Emacs, and as soon as it truly
works as well (no matter how poor that is) as sgml-mode in
DTD-less settings, we can and should replace sgml-mode with PSGML.

But the DTD-less setting is very important.


	Stefan



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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Ron Ross]

"Stefan Monnier" <monnier+gnu/emacs/pretest@rum.cs.yale.edu> writes:

>> Richard Stallman wrote:
>> >     Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs 
>> >     distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be 
>> >     as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. 
>> 
>> Replacement. I've been advocating this ever since psgml reached stable
>> *years* ago. sgml-mode alone is useless and vastly confusing for the
>> beginner, as it precisely does *NOT* implement SGML editing, only the
>> recognition of pointy brackets -- useful 15 years ago but not now!
>
> Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
> PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
> unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
> why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
> I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
> is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
> it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.

I must agree with Peter Flynn and question whether Emacs' default
*sgml*-mode be one that functions /a priori/ without a DTD. It's almost
a contradiction in terms.

>
>> Please. In perpetuating sgml-mode we are making the Emacs distro look
>> very silly.
>
> Given the amount of complaint about PSGML "not indenting and not
> highlighting" we have seen on gnu.emacs.help I'd say that the lack
> of DTD-less support has been a problem for a long time now.
> Yes, PSGML should be included in Emacs, and as soon as it truly
> works as well (no matter how poor that is) as sgml-mode in
> DTD-less settings, we can and should replace sgml-mode with PSGML.
>
> But the DTD-less setting is very important.

The indentation and syntax-highlighting issue should really be
distinguished from the DTD issue, which in turn covers the separate
issues of working without a DTD and working with the new XML apparatus
(schemas and namespaces) related to DTDs.

DTD-less editing seems to me to be specific to a small subset of XML
files. As long as we are considering a consolidation of markup language
support in Emacs, perhaps psgml could become the default SGML/XML mode,
and then another mode - whether derived from psgml or from the current
sgml packages - could be made a available for DTD-less editing
(something like "sgml/xml-lite"). The elisp namespace problem would then
be solved by leaving psgml with the "sgml/xml"-prefixed symbols and then
developing a new namespace for the qndml (quick-n-diry-ml-mode ;-).

Ron



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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
> PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
> unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
> why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
> I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
> is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
> it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.

There is no point in even attempting to edit SGML without a DTD,
as a DTD is *required* by ISO 8859 for all processing.

If you need to edit pointy-bracket markup without a DTD, you must
use XML, not SGML.

> Given the amount of complaint about PSGML "not indenting and not
> highlighting" we have seen on gnu.emacs.help I'd say that the lack
> of DTD-less support has been a problem for a long time now.

Who on earth are these people who are trying to edit SGML without
a DTD?

> Yes, PSGML should be included in Emacs, and as soon as it truly
> works as well (no matter how poor that is) as sgml-mode in
> DTD-less settings, we can and should replace sgml-mode with PSGML.
> 
> But the DTD-less setting is very important.

It's really irrelevant for SGML. Only XML will work without a DTD.

///Peter




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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Kai Großjohann]

Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> writes:

> Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
>> Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
>> PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
>> unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
>> why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
>> I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
>> is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
>> it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.
>
> There is no point in even attempting to edit SGML without a DTD,
> as a DTD is *required* by ISO 8859 for all processing.

Note that both sgml-mode and PSGML are, despite their names, sometimes
used for editing XML.

Therefore the wish that PSGML work well without a DTD is meaningful
and useful.
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Kai Großjohann wrote:

> Note that both sgml-mode and PSGML are, despite their names, sometimes
> used for editing XML.
> 
> Therefore the wish that PSGML work well without a DTD is meaningful
> and useful.

Absolutely. I never said it wasn't.

I said editing SGML files with only sgml-mode without a DTD was pointless.

///Peter

Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Dave Love]

Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> writes:

> Yes. Kill it immediately and replace with psgml-mode. Make sgml-mode an
> alias for psgml-mode.

There has long been a TODO item about PSGML, but it's not that simple.
The current code isn't fully covered by copyright assignments for a
start.  (Anyone could help by chasing those.)  Also I don't remember
whether it's really in a state now where it could be included, or
whether it still needs tidying-up.

> Please. In perpetuating sgml-mode we are making the Emacs distro look
> very silly.

I think that's an overstatement.  Emacs language modes generally don't
have a proper treatment of the relevant syntax.  PSGML anyway only
supports the reference concrete syntax and you can certainly produce
invalid documents with it.




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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Dave Love]

kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Therefore the wish that PSGML work well without a DTD is meaningful
> and useful.

If you say in what way it doesn't work well currently, maybe someone
can fix it.




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Adding PSGML to the Emacs CVS (Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters)

[Karl Eichwalder]

Dave Love <d.love@dl.ac.uk> writes:

> The current code isn't fully covered by copyright assignments for a
> start.  (Anyone could help by chasing those.)

Which part are not covered?  If only rather old parts lack assignments,
I guess it isn't that serious: psgml is distributed freely for quite
some years now and nobody complained -- thus all the oldtimers
acknowledged the current state of the art: psgml is distributed under
the conditions of the GPL (if one does not stand up in time you will
loose your rights, AFAIK).  IANAL etc. pp.

> Also I don't remember whether it's really in a state now where it
> could be included, or whether it still needs tidying-up.

As it stands it's pretty useful.  As long as we add it in addition to
the current sgml-mode nobody will miss any feature.

Can we add it now (rms already agreed)?  Who is considered (or willing)
to add it to the CVS?  If I can help in some way, please instruct me;
I'm willing to spend some time on this issue (as said earlier).

-- 
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
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Re: Adding PSGML to the Emacs CVS (Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters)

[Richard Stallman]

    Which part are not covered?  If only rather old parts lack assignments,
    I guess it isn't that serious:

We need assignments covering all of the code if we're to include it in
the Emacs distribution.  It makes no difference how recently the code
was contributed.




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Re: Adding PSGML to the Emacs CVS (Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters)

[Stefan Monnier]

> Which part are not covered?  If only rather old parts lack assignments,
> I guess it isn't that serious: psgml is distributed freely for quite
> some years now and nobody complained -- thus all the oldtimers
> acknowledged the current state of the art: psgml is distributed under
> the conditions of the GPL (if one does not stand up in time you will
> loose your rights, AFAIK).  IANAL etc. pp.

The "you have to defend your rights" only applies to trade marks AFAIK.
Not to copyrights and not to patents either (witness the GIF debacle).


	Stefan



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Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Stefan Monnier]

> > Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
> > PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
> > unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
> > why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
> > I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
> > is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
> > it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.
> 
> I must agree with Peter Flynn and question whether Emacs' default
> *sgml*-mode be one that functions /a priori/ without a DTD.  It's almost
> a contradiction in terms.

Maybe it's a contradiction in terms for you, but as I said, it's the standard
case for me.  The DTD exists, but I simply don't have it.
And I really mean SGML, not just XML.
The fact that sgml-mode doesn't even try to use a DTD is not a feature.
But the fact that it tries to be useful even in the absence of a DTD is.
Based on Dave's comments, I gather that psgml-mode now has a more
"graceful degradation" when the DTD is missing, so this might all
be a non-issue.


	Stefan

Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated),
>>>PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is
>>>unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me.  This is
>>>why I spent some time improving sgml-mode.
>>>I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it
>>>is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe
>>>it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode.
>>
>>I must agree with Peter Flynn and question whether Emacs' default
>>*sgml*-mode be one that functions /a priori/ without a DTD.  It's almost
>>a contradiction in terms.
> 
> 
> Maybe it's a contradiction in terms for you, but as I said, it's the standard
> case for me.  The DTD exists, but I simply don't have it.

Forgive my curiosity but I'm interested to know why.

> And I really mean SGML, not just XML.
> The fact that sgml-mode doesn't even try to use a DTD is not a feature.
> But the fact that it tries to be useful even in the absence of a DTD is.
> Based on Dave's comments, I gather that psgml-mode now has a more
> "graceful degradation" when the DTD is missing, so this might all
> be a non-issue.

It's pretty much a non-issue now: if the DTD is unknown or absent, then
you're not editing SGML, you're editing plain text.

But I agree, a mode which allows some syntactic response to pointy
brackets is enormously useful in dealing with the typical end-user's
imaginary markup systems, which traditionally require huge amounts
of character editing of the markup to make them validate.

///Peter

Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Miles Bader]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 12:34:38AM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> There is no point in even attempting to edit SGML without a DTD,

Of course there's a point.  It may not be as nice as when you know the real
semantics (the results may be woefully wrong, if the grammar has lots of
implicit end tags or something), but it's still useful.

> as a DTD is *required* by ISO 8859 for all processing.

It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users find
convenient.

Think `graceful degradation' -- do the best you can, instead of pedantically
clinging to standards.

> It's really irrelevant for SGML. Only XML will work without a DTD.

So when you can't get the SGML DTD, just pretend the file's XML, and you'll
get `sort of reasonable' results.  It's not `correct,' but it's probably
still useful, and sounds pretty easy to me*...

-Miles

* Of course I'm speaking out my ass
-- 
`There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
 Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'

Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Robert J. Chassell]

    Think `graceful degradation' -- do the best you can, instead of
    pedantically clinging to standards.

Yes!  This is very important.  Over the years, you will come across
the weirdest things.

`Graceful degradation' is a design feature that has help GNU Emacs
enormously in the past and should continue as part of its design.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         Rattlesnake Enterprises
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.teak.cc                                     bob@gnu.org

Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Miles Bader wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 12:34:38AM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> 
>>There is no point in even attempting to edit SGML without a DTD,
> 
> Of course there's a point.  It may not be as nice as when you know the real
> semantics (the results may be woefully wrong, if the grammar has lots of
> implicit end tags or something), but it's still useful.

Not really, in the sense that you can't *use* the file in any normal way
unless it's valid. If you know the DTD by heart and you have a great eye
for accuracy, sure, you can edit the file using vi or Notepad or Emacs
with just sgml-mode and you'll probably get it very close to correct.

And there is at least one very important set of occasions when editing
SGML without a validating enviromment is significantly important, as
has been pointed out elsewhere
(http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/achallc97/papers/p041.html).

The results will almost certainly be woefully wrong for any non-trivial
case, so apart from the above I'm not clear how it could be said to be
"useful" except as a learning experience.

>>as a DTD is *required* by ISO 8859 for all processing.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users find
> convenient.

This is meaningless. I can't supply a client with a broken document and
tell them that my author found it more "convenient" to edit without the
DTD and that the fact that they specified SGML according to a specific
DTD "doesn't matter". *I* didn't specify SGML conformance, *they* did,
and the fact that I may believe standards adherence to be wrong doesn't
change the fact that I have to supply what has been contracted for.

You might just as well say that even though the law says you must stop
at a red light, you find it more convenient to run the light.

In your view, if someone thinks that that "it doesn't matter" if the
ANSI C standard requires some aspect of C syntax that they don't like,
and if they find it more convenient to omit some declarations because
they get in the way, you believe these people should be at liberty to
do so and still claim they are writing C. I think not; and it won't work.

"The standard doesn't matter" means you can't be bothered your ass :-)
that's fine, it's your ass, and if you really don't like the SGML
standard (many don't), you are at complete liberty to go and make your
own system. You just can't call it SGML or XML.

(Many people, especially programmers, hate and despise SGML and XML very
deeply indeed because they are not programming languages, and because
they cannot be described using the shibboleths of standard Comp Sci Prog
Lang 101. We -- the SGML/XML community -- have failed to communicate and
educate about the difference between markup languages and programming,
and Computer Science has failed to adapt itself to include some of the
paradigms of markup.)

> Think `graceful degradation' -- do the best you can, instead of pedantically
> clinging to standards.

Graceful degradation is fine in the face of corrupted files, as I have
already explained. But when you are contracted to produce SGML there
is no point in producing nonsense-markup instead. A standard is a
standard, period. I didn't write them, but my customers require that I
adhere to them.

I'm not clear why you use the word "pedantic". Pedanticism is for
*off-standard* behaviour, like requiring adherence to optional features
as if they were compulsory. That is not the case under discussion here.

> So when you can't get the SGML DTD, 

Ah. Now *that's* a different problem entirely. If it never existed
(files created by people who didn't know what they were creating),
or the DTD is lost in the mists of time, then the simple solution
is to create one. There are programs to do this -- have been for
years -- and I even documented one in my 1998 book on SGML/XML tools,
called Fred (from OCLC). There are now many more for XML as well.

> just pretend the file's XML, and you'll get `sort of reasonable'
 > results.

Not with sgml-mode, and for the same reasons. But with an Emacs mode
that handles XML you can indeed edit the file as well-formed DTD-less
XML, and I have suggested this as a solution to malformed or broken
SGML on numerous occasions.

> It's not `correct,' but it's probably still useful, 

On the contrary, it will actually be perfectly "correct" (as
well-formed DTD-less XML) and it will probably be quite useful.

But it won't be what we have been calling SGML until you reference
or attach a DTD and validate it, if that's what you need.

 > and sounds pretty easy to me*...

It's all very easy. It just needs to be done right (the easy way)
instead of wrong (the hard way).

///Peter



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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Robert J. Chassell]

Peter Flynn <peter@silmaril.ie> wrote:

    ... or the DTD is lost in the mists of time, then the simple solution
    is to create one. There are programs to do this -- have been for
    years -- and I even documented one in my 1998 book on SGML/XML tools,
    called Fred (from OCLC). There are now many more for XML as well.

Yes, and when you include such a program written in Emacs Lisp in
Psgml mode, then you are providing another tool to handle
`graceful degredation'.  

Please understand, no one wants to provide a broken file to someone
else; that is not what the discussion is about.

As a user of Emacs, I have received broken or corrupted files from
other people and had to fix them.  GNU Emacs has made this action
easier than it would be otherwise.  The issue is whether or not to
continue to provide at least some tools for handling corrupt or broken
SGML or XML files that you receive.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         Rattlesnake Enterprises
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.teak.cc                                     bob@gnu.org


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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Robert J. Chassell wrote:
[generating DTDs]
> Yes, and when you include such a program written in Emacs Lisp in
> Psgml mode, then you are providing another tool to handle
> `graceful degredation'.  

That would be a great tool.

> Please understand, no one wants to provide a broken file to someone
> else; that is not what the discussion is about.

No, but a lot of people who don't grok the fullness of SGML believe
that supplying a file with pointy brackets is sufficient.

> As a user of Emacs, I have received broken or corrupted files from
> other people and had to fix them.  GNU Emacs has made this action
> easier than it would be otherwise.  The issue is whether or not to
> continue to provide at least some tools for handling corrupt or broken
> SGML or XML files that you receive.

I don't think it's that so much as whether users should be allowed to
assume (wrongly) that sgml-mode is the canonical authoritative mode
for handling SGML. Currently there is that risk, simply because of the
name, which is there for historical reasons. This is a bit like saying
that you can use (say) text-mode for writing programs because it does
at least recognise matched parentheses. My argument was that this view
is inadequate and unfair to the user, especially the new user, and that
I would prefer to see psgml-mode eventually becoming the default for
.sgm[l] and .xml files. By all means keep sgml-mode as Bob suggests for
those occasions when it's needed, but rename it to something which makes
it clear that it's for help with matching pointy brackets and not the
full syntax.

///Peter




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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Robert J. Chassell]

   > Please understand, no one wants to provide a broken file to someone
   > else; that is not what the discussion is about.

   No, but a lot of people who don't grok the fullness of SGML believe
   that supplying a file with pointy brackets is sufficient.

Good point.  It is the confusion as to what is the `deliverable'.

   ... I would prefer to see psgml-mode eventually becoming the
   default for .sgm[l] and .xml files. By all means keep sgml-mode as
   Bob suggests for those occasions when it's needed, but rename it
   ...

Yes.  Just as I use Mail mode for email, Texinfo mode for Texinfo, I
expect to use SGML mode for SGML and XML mode for XML.

Clearly, the mode should handle proper `deliverables' well and degrade
gracefully to handle files with point brackets as well as the current
SGML mode.  

Hardly anyone, when editing an XML file he just received, will want
Emacs to tell him that the mode into which Emacs automatically put him
is wrong and that to edit the file comfortably he should shift to a
different mode.  Such a message will come across as a bug in Emacs.
But that bug is what seems to be suggested by the phrase `keep ... for
those occasions when it's needed'.

Instead, the mode that Emacs determines automatically for the file
should handle the problem.  Of course, Emacs may give messages saying
that the file looks corrupted or that the assemblage is incomplete, as
in `No DTD found for this file!  Will attempt to continue anyway!
Using very limited, default DTD that may not be appropriate for this
file.'

Does the current PSGML mode gracefully handle a file that has only
point brackets and nothing else?  Does it do as well as the current
SGML mode for these occasions?  If so, it sounds to me that PSGML mode
provides all the features that the current SGML mode provides and some
additional.

On the other hand, if it does not yet well handle a file that has
pointy brackets and not the full syntax, then the mode fails to
degrade gracefully.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         Rattlesnake Enterprises
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.teak.cc                                     bob@gnu.org


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Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Karl Eichwalder]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 12:34:38AM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:

>> as a DTD is *required* by ISO 8859 for all processing.

It's arguable whether editing a SGML file counts as "processing"; if
Emacs/psgml or any other editor would actually check the .sgml file
against the DTD at _all_ stages it would be impossible to open some
file or to tag a "plain" test file ;-)

> It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users
> find convenient.

Yes.

> Think `graceful degradation' -- do the best you can, instead of pedantically
> clinging to standards.

Peter exaggerates :)  IIRC, the standard makes some claims about a
"conforming SGML system" and some such things -- but as long as you
don't call Emacs/sgml-mode.el such a system there is nothing to worry
aobut.

> So when you can't get the SGML DTD, just pretend the file's XML, and you'll
> get `sort of reasonable' results.  It's not `correct,' but it's probably
> still useful, and sounds pretty easy to me*...

Better do it the other way around -- never ever pretend something is
XML if you don't know it for sure.

-- 
ke@suse.de (work) / keichwa@gmx.net (home):              |
http://www.gnu.franken.de/ke/                            |      ,__o
Free Translation Project:                                |    _-\_<,
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/             |   (*)/'(*)

Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> It's arguable whether editing a SGML file counts as "processing"; if
> Emacs/psgml or any other editor would actually check the .sgml file
> against the DTD at _all_ stages it would be impossible to open some
> file or to tag a "plain" test file ;-)

I'm not sure what you mean by "check the .sgml file against the DTD
at _all_ stages" but if you mean "conduct continuous validation" then
many SGML and XML editors do exactly that: only they don't do it by
running a sequential parse of the entire document every time, they
just disallow any editing action which would break the rules of the DTD.

>>It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users
>>find convenient.
> 
> Yes.

Interesting. How many more people think invalid C ought to compile?

> Peter exaggerates :)  IIRC, the standard makes some claims about a
> "conforming SGML system" and some such things -- but as long as you
> don't call Emacs/sgml-mode.el such a system there is nothing to worry
> aobut.

Perfectly correct, and it has never claimed to be such. I just think
the name is misleading.

> Better do it the other way around -- never ever pretend something is
> XML if you don't know it for sure.

Ditto with SGML :-)

I rest my case.

///Peter




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Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Stefan Monnier]

> >>It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users
> >>find convenient.
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> Interesting. How many more people think invalid C ought to compile?

I don't think that's the question.  The question is rather: how
many people think they should be able to comfortably edit a C
file even if they don't have the relevant .h files around (such
that it's impossible to tell whether the file will compile or not).


	Stefan



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Re: [Psgml-devel] Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Peter Flynn]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>>It doesn't matter what the `standard requires,' it matters what users
>>>>find convenient.
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>
>>Interesting. How many more people think invalid C ought to compile?
> 
> 
> I don't think that's the question.  The question is rather: how
> many people think they should be able to comfortably edit a C
> file even if they don't have the relevant .h files around (such
> that it's impossible to tell whether the file will compile or not).

That's not really the question either. The OP's complaint was -- in
effect -- that he couldn't care less whether the "SGML" he produced
was valid or not, and didn't see the need for a validating editor
environment.

I don't have any problem with people editing without a DTD if they
feel they can carry the grove in their head, and keep track of the
pointy brackets by eye. It may be suboptimal but that's their choice.
Many people edit C in this fashion, without an IDE to keep track of
things, but they do at least presumably take care that the resulting
file compiles.

///Peter

Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters

[Robert J. Chassell]

   ... The OP's complaint was -- in effect -- that he couldn't care
   less whether the "SGML" he produced was valid or not ...

Here is a possible solution for XML:

  * If the person provides a DTD use that ....

  * If the person does *not* provide a DTD use the texinfo.dtd
    provided in the texinfo-4.3 distribution in makeinfo/texinfo.dtd

  * Provide and document a simple command to convert an XML document
    using the texinfo.dtd and the texinfo.xsl to Texinfo.  (I am
    pretty sure a suitable conversion program already exists, but it
    needs documentation and maybe packaging in a shell script that
    calls the appropriate ancillary files.)

`makeinfo' already provides the option to convert a Texinfo source
file to an XML output file with the texinfo.dtd using the --xml option 

There is a major advantage to making the texinfo.dtd the default; with
it, you can convert the source XML (or "deep representation") file to
all the various different output (or "surface representation") formats
that people use.

Here is the argument favoring Texinfo, or a Texinfo-like mark up
language, using DocBook as the prime villain, and LaTeX as a
secondary.

DocBook is a widely used format that has a more complex DTD than
texinfo.dtd.  (Incidentally, `makeinfo' provides an option to convert
a Texinfo source to DocBook, but as said here, depending on how the
author writes the document, the reverse may be harder or impossible.)

  DocBook suffers two major problems, both fatal, neither technical:

     * DocBook documents are generally harder to read (both by novices
       and by experts) in their `deep representation' form, before
       being converted to formats to which readers listen or view.

       This means it is harder to edit the document.  Many people who
       use interfaces that hide the looks of the document do not
       perceive this as a problem because they write for that single
       interface or `surface representation'.  This leads us to the
       second, fatal problem:

     * Writers often use DocBook features.  Indeed, this is something
       you would expect and generally welcome!  The features were
       designed to be used!

       Unfortunately, DocBook was designed for people who are
       situationally sighted -- not blind, not driving a car, not
       working on something to which they must apply visual attention.
       In this sense, DocBook is like LaTeX.

       The problem, and this is the key, is that most people who write
       DocBook documents fail to write them for a wide range of
       readers.

    People who write for Texinfo also often fail to consider their
    different kinds of readers, but Texinfo discourages `high res
    visual presumptions'.  

    Texinfo does a better job of ensuring that authors write documents
    that are readable and listenable by everyone than does the
    alternative, which for DocBook or LaTeX is to ask authors to
    describe their picture, an action which may take `a thousand
    words', in addition to displaying the picture for those who can
    view it.

    Technically, you can write a document using DocBook or LaTeX that
    converts well to widely different output representations, not just
    to one output representation.  The problem is, enough people
    don't.

    Every time you write, please write for the following readers:

      * the blind person, whether permanently or situationally blind,
        who is listening to your work using Emacspeak

      * the person reading your document on a Web site, who has a fast
        Internet connection

      * the person reading your document on a Web site who has a slow
        Internet connection to your Web site and who is paying by the
        downloaded byte

      * the person reading your document efficiently, navigating
        around to parts quickly

      * the person reading your document on paper that has been
        printed by a high resolution printer

      * the person working on a slow machine or over a slow
        connection, who is reading your work, which is coming to him
        or her at less than 300 baud.  (And before those of you who
        are fortunate say that slowness is obsolete and never occurs
        nowadays, please note that that in my experience, slow
        connections still occur, even though most of the time, I have
        a 40kb/s telephone connection.)

    And, yes, as I was typing that last sentence, my Internet
    connection vanished, my dialer redialed and a voice said, "If you
    would like to make a call, please hang up and try again" ....
    Awkward connections occur everywhere.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         Rattlesnake Enterprises
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.teak.cc                                     bob@gnu.org


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