From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <87ofbji88u.fsf@emacswiki.org> <87sn0scb0b.fsf@emacswiki.org> <200209061728.g86HSVp32767@rum.cs.yale.edu> <20020906220339.GA7270@gnu.org> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1031408375 20096 127.0.0.1 (7 Sep 2002 14:19:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:19:35 +0000 (UTC) Return-path: Original-Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no ([193.71.71.242]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17ngQv-0005E0-00 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:19:33 +0200 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org (quimby.gnus.org [80.91.224.244]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.12.2/8.12.2/GN) with ESMTP id g87EJYRb032542 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:19:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org) Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17ngzu-0001u0-00 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:55:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17ngQu-0001LX-00; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:19:32 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17ngOg-0001Dj-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:17:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17ngOb-0001D2-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: from megalith.rattlesnake.com ([140.186.114.245] helo=localhost) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17ngOa-0001Ch-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:17:08 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Per Abrahamsen on Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:07:07 +0200) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:7696 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:7696 Per Abrahamsen wrote: The problem is the mindset that making complex applications written by programmers for programmers easy to configure, is simply a matter of providing a "friendly" interface to the existing configuration mechanisms. This mindset is shared by most traditional Unix developers (and probably Lisp developers too, but who cares). However, this assumes that being "easy to configure" is merely a matter of "syntactical sugar", that is, provide a form based interface to the old text based configuration files. Please explain in more detail. I cannot infer your implications. To me, the current customize is "syntactical sugar". That is to say, it creates, edits, and writes expressions to my .emacs file for two functions, `custom-set-faces', and `custom-set-variables'. I can edit and evaluate those function calls in my .emacs, or I can edit and evaluate them using a `Customize' buffer. Either way, I end up with expression in my .emacs file. If you want to make configuration easy to the end-users, you need to start with their needs, and not with the old textual configuration files. What are the implications of this? After all, "the old textual configuration files" are not the `surface representation' that an end-user ever sees; they are a `deep structure' that a programmer sees, if he or she wishes. (To the programmer, of course, they are a `surface representation' of the underlying bits.) The configuration *must* be saved somehow. Otherwise, the customization did not `take hold'. Why not save it in a format that a programmer can readily edit? (And in the case of Emacs, in a format that the existing virtual machine can readily evaluate?) -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com bob@gnu.org Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com Free Software Foundation http://www.gnu.org GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8