From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-l while in menu? Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:19:38 +0000 (UTC) Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019751705 14258 127.0.0.1 (25 Apr 2002 16:21:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:21:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: keichwa@gmx.net, rms@gnu.org, gerd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 170m08-0003hr-00 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:21:44 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 170m2N-00063K-00 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:24:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170lzz-00037p-00; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:21:35 -0400 Original-Received: from megalith.rattlesnake.com ([140.186.114.245] helo=localhost) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170lyH-0002ve-00; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:19:50 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:19:38 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: eliz@is.elta.co.il In-Reply-To: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:54:12 +0300 (IDT)) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3265 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3265 > ... No one who uses the key in that position as a > control key will ever like Emacs. That control key position is too > painful. FWIW, I'm using such keyboards for a long time, and I don't have any significant problems. Interesting -- you are the first person I have met who can stand to use that keybinding for more than a few minutes. Unfortunately, the right Alt key is used as AltGr on national keyboards (it produces non-ASCII characters and characters which have no keys). So it's not free to be usurped for the menus. But there are 3 more keys on most modern PC keyboards-- ... I have seen that kind of keyboard, although many of the keyboards I have seen are different. What is their type? xkeycaps lists a large number of types, such as `104 key, wide Delete, shorter Enter' Certainly, one of those extra keys could be used for menus. > Sometimes the CONTROL key is labeled CTRL or CTL; at other times it is > labeled differently: often as CAPS LOCK. I think users who read the tutorial (novices, I'd expect) will be tremendously confused by that, since most of them don't have their keys remapped. You are very unusual in being able to use a control key in the far lower left. My experience is based on people who tell me their keyboard has no `Return' key, and who then have no more difficulty using a key that is labeled `Enter' as a Return key as in using key that is labeled `Caps Lock' as a control key. > So I think we should at most add a footnote saying something > about the possibility of remapped keys, and that the tutorial > assumes that they aren't. Anything else will cause more > confusion than there might be now. That's right. When we're talking about novices, we should assume that they didn't change anything, as they don't know how to do that. We are talking about *setting up* a default configuration for novices. We are choosing what keybindings we think should be their default. Why choose a keybinding default that people dislike? Eli is the exception: other than him, the people I know cannot comfortably use a control key in the far lower left. We have to choose some default -- why choose that one? To take another example: Eli said that some keyboards carry left and right `Windows' keys: why should I bind them to shift among virtual consoles, only some of which may be running X Windows? (That is what `Windows' suggests to me -- a key to shift among different windowing sessions, the way the M-C-Fn_key binding works for me.) On keyboards that have them, why not bind those keys in some other way? Eli suggested binding one of them to a menu pop up command. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com