From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-l while in menu? Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <200204072343.g37NhIC20114@aztec.santafe.edu> <200204201727.g3KHRD401381@aztec.santafe.edu> <200204220746.g3M7kvY01878@aztec.santafe.edu> <200204220928.g3M9S9H32293@rum.cs.yale.edu> <3CC40A74.5040600@666.com> <200204231930.g3NJUvJ02796@aztec.santafe.edu> <200204250607.g3P67Ym03968@aztec.santafe.edu> Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1019736200 15415 127.0.0.1 (25 Apr 2002 12:03:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:03:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, gerd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 170hy3-00040W-00 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:03:19 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 170i0C-00009l-00 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:05:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170hy0-0005wb-00; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:03:16 -0400 Original-Received: from megalith.rattlesnake.com ([140.186.114.245] helo=localhost) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 170hvN-0005pn-00; Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:00:33 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.114) Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: keichwa@gmx.net In-Reply-To: (message from Karl Eichwalder on Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:21:28 +0200) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3250 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3250 ... the key of a PC keyboard labeled "Alt" pressed in combination with the underlined menu letter must display the menu. This does not make sense. It is like saying that you should use the left hand key labeled `Ctrl' as a control key. On the keyboard that I am typing on now, the left hand key labeled `Ctrl' is to the left of the key labled `Alt', and is in a very awkward position. No one who uses the key in that position as a control key will ever like Emacs. That control key position is too painful. Surely, you bind keys by default so that key to the left of the key labeled `A' becomes the control key? (On my keyboard, that key is labeled `Caps Lock'.) Am I right in thinking that you explain this? (Also, am I right in thinking that you explain that the `Return' key may not have a `Return' label on it, but may be labeled in some other way?) The pop-up menu binding issue is similar: a newbie may come from a background in which he or she assumes that bindings are hard coded, rather than variable. Morover, the newbie may think that a key labeled `Caps Lock' turns on uppercase letters, as in an old, manual typewriter! No one using computers has needed such a key for 25 years, yet we still see the label! As for solutions: I can imagine a default binding in which the key to the right of the space bar operates a menu and the key to the left of the space bar is meta. On my keyboard both keys are labeled `Alt'. While I don't use a menu nowadays, I remember vividly how helpful a menu was back in 1984 when I was learning. The menu feature helped me transition from an inefficient newbie who always moved the mouse to a more efficient person who mostly keeps my fingers on the keyboard. (I learned to use the mouse only when it actually is appropriate for the job -- usually to move to a quite different spot on the screen. I also learned how time consuming it is to press a key labeled `Esc' when that key is more than a centimeter or two from the other keys I regularly press.) .... I'd appreciate a configuration option saying "use Alt plus underlined letter to activate a menu or a menue entry". .... As stated, this will not make sense to a novice. Learners do not necessarily know the difference between keybindings and key labels. They will not know know whether you are referring to the `Alt' key binding or to one of the keys labeled `Alt'. The human factors issue is how to explain to a novice the difference between keybindings and key labels, and then to explain the default keybindings. The beginning of the Tutorial does not explain this well; it leaves people thinking that key labels point to key bindings: Emacs commands generally involve the CONTROL key (sometimes labeled CTRL or CTL) or the META key (sometimes labeled EDIT or ALT). That is not good. How about coming up with a better explanation? Here is a more wordy alternative that could be used as a starting point: Emacs commands generally involve the CONTROL key or the META key. Sometimes the CONTROL key is labeled CTRL or CTL; at other times it is labeled differently: often as CAPS LOCK. Almost always, the CONTROL key is the key to left of the key that inserts the letter A or a. Similarly, META key may be labeled META; but it may be labeled EDIT or ALT or something else. Usually, the META key is the key immediately to the left of the spacebar. -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com