From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Howard Melman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:16:32 -0400 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <83mtua9isw.fsf@gnu.org> <83zgy8997y.fsf@gnu.org> <83sg4094e1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39933"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (darwin) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:o7w36XxIu3mU6A85tMnIgbTqZG8= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 08 19:17:55 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lUYHy-000AI6-02 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 19:17:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53068 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUYHx-0003eD-0r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:17:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59288) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUYGp-0002dR-7r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:16:43 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:59858) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUYGn-0001YE-SR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 13:16:42 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lUYGk-0008o5-QQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 19:16:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267632 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> Do we need to speak of "top-level menu", or can we get away with the >> >> shorter "Show all installed manuals"? >> > >> > But "show a manual" could be interpreted as displaying the contents of >> > that manual, in which case "show all manuals" makes no sense. >> >> I don't see how anyone could take "show all manuals" as meaning anything >> other than some kind of _list_ of manuals. > > Well, I did. > >> How else would they be shown? > > "They" being the manuals? The top-level Info menu doesn't show any > manuals, it only shows their names. > >> That said, this is not something I feel is very important. We can go >> with your preference if you feel strongly about it. > > I don't feel strong about it. You asked for a review, and I provided > one. FWIW I don't think the current description is accurate. At least for me in Emacs 27, C-h i is bound to the command info. If there is no *info* buffer it opens info showing what it calls the Info Directory which (again in info terminology, for better or worse) is "a menu which leads to all the nodes that exist" and which "lists all the manuals and other Info documents that are, or could be, installed on your system". But if there is a buffer showing an info node, C-h i will take you to that buffer and not to the list of all manuals. And I don't believe the command even takes any kind of argument to take you to the info directory if a node is open. (I use d after C-h i if that's what I want.) I think these are more accurate options: i Open Info (read all manuals) i Show Info documentation (read all manuals) i Show Info documentation (read installed manuals) i Show Info documentation browser (read all manuals) I'm not sure which of these I prefer but I think they're all better than what you currently have. They include the mnemonic "info", accurately describe what the command does in all circumstances, and are understandable in plain language for the newbie. -- Howard