From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Radetsky Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 11:01:07 -0800 Message-ID: References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34457"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Adam Porter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 26 20:02:05 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tG0p3-0008sA-16 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 20:02:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tG0oG-0000dc-Bd; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 14:01:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tG0oE-0000dK-Ai for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 14:01:14 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tG0oC-0002jZ-NO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 14:01:14 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-724f41d520cso2273651b3a.1 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732647670; x=1733252470; darn=gnu.org; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H6k+DqwarVBeq8VRh4b9zgafnV/RhYhyRKYep2/7Opc=; b=AYPWVUMZTWWcpNV8wWfqkFu5lkNlDJ4YvB5G3Nw7VptPdn6VtIQXnqDN1aI1xKWJY5 VgqWTJ0oUQOlo6ycW/vd3ZbVK8YOaShNEv6CGrxLZ8zGZ4Gk1HDvADxh1e3dCKVPfdeS DsVCLFCWQXRgvhDg39A0Badz2945pczw0hLIYAWzRPLl/hFegIGPCD1fslmivlACyFdo PIUsyK0D+LVutkA3zkKgEkXgH0hVWhNkWOQBNQRHRFQFtvV86hW/3K6DGSA/XBKy+O9+ NdCgGpwe+sXwjsDmWlD+UY6TOcedAXyFjreu79z/h8yEqa2ltzmSkOQzYfdX8NzotUth wr3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732647670; x=1733252470; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=H6k+DqwarVBeq8VRh4b9zgafnV/RhYhyRKYep2/7Opc=; b=ci1vGMEFlI0pX07E9R4EljP1w39OM70vZcBJSRfvj8RFbp0UeXpp9+sVUCiRM6tMWN boZTIq+2V1bkbsiXtM5t/bc7lRZYbr6/NhN6+wUKTyOwN6TrHXIKQZ28FAYNWL6i3JIC EIke9NUwTURnS/yChN3GSiYC3ZxWZmVFly2+bwcWZq8yeqyRzVZFm4wGBT8WPjqTIOhp jTW165OUnFR70FhyUeEagRuE7Wv3pWiNAns8a1yPka2L8c8RnDd+oaLHPadoJ5WI2GFa unO5PslaRwyXLBhPohOgYYpcvDB8+3CYZWAtGRFQXNyliaudUrOFNYz+ZAkJpExWvmJM ohvw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWIbVAJfFVU1UNUBTnHnFxLptLr1GzYH3IA7WpRmNdvVrCYOCA3KuobGfVbEhTrNA2tmDqJD4+kEV7zmQ==@gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzBJBFcutoFRgM0dOMBRU8oPlhJlvYGBLt1Oj+wCbivJ6qTVvL/ 3EojBkgUONEktyL9YQgIWQnRbqwvGzbu55OgQIrufJfRsLDzORcQqFU5HA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsg77ypS7Sgvv5AzR7PqPZ8tTyLjIm/xZnfh8NSqteI1fqHMiWO7+rq0Y4T/Ut 0qIM3u7K6o8h64vJDUqUWkjQnfvljBBv+meu0oyvp4Gfvh9lQ4Suwx8kxwsFMlFPAVVOe+XpU8m jfk3UCI7c04fKMgK8neDVEyWAQL85i6YEDn9UlLSYcbZdpcPhnvcnXG2Zn0VLaATVAYMZyCsiyI EsHzatQM939qux5bnHXR4/MlgVEwJCTrzgm/kMCbyU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEJCE1YaZkegqdouCAl80b/5SQfe8sb3uFBGMHRRGCreeVXg/G2okBmvyrV0Q5d2ceEmQeemg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:3cc9:b0:724:e80a:330 with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7252ffd85d9mr413778b3a.5.1732647669959; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 11:01:09 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from flap ([2601:645:8a81:69c0:761a:c047:99ba:cdf6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-724de55a3fcsm8720476b3a.166.2024.11.26.11.01.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 26 Nov 2024 11:01:09 -0800 (PST) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::432; envelope-from=dradetsky@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x432.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325722 Archived-At: On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 11:35:35PM -0600, Adam Porter wrote: > But it is not okay for you to blame Stefan for your decision to leave. I disagree. If he chooses to leave, and the reason for this choice is Stefan's behavior or decisions, then blaming Stefan seems straightforwardly informative. I'm not as much of a veteran of this list as some of you, and my few interactions with Stefan have been positive. So I can't really speak to who's in the right and don't think I should. But it's broadly better to have information about what's going on and what decisions are being made and how everyone feels about those decisions than to not have this information. Basically, if Stefan made a decisions, and this made Alan so unhappy that he wants to leave, this is something everyone should know. Sometimes this is the price of a decision. We need to know the price to make informed choices. I'm not accusing you of this specifically, but it seems like in situations like this there's a desire to make the situation black and white. Either Stefan made a bad decision which ought to be reversed, and the fact that it is not being reversed would justify Alan leaving, or Alan is being unreasonable and thus his decision to leave is a foregone conclusion being unfairly blamed on Stefan. Thus if we don't want to reverse Stefan's decision, we must believe that Alan is being unreasonable. But it's also possible that e.g. Stefan made a good decision in the big picture, but this was locally problematic for Alan. And even though we prefer Stefan's good decision, we prefer a worse decision with the benefit of Alan's continued contribution than the alternative. Or maybe not, but this is why we want to surface the costs of decisions. It's better than pretending that hard decisions don't need to be made, and that the true costs of those decisions are just somebody being unreasonable and thus not worth counting on the "cost" side of the ledger. If Alan isn't happy with Stefan's decision then even if we think it was overall a good decision, this doesn't mean we have to be unhappy with Alan. We can just ask ourselves if the whole thing is worth it. Or rather, the rest of you can ask it; I don't have an opinion on the specifics. --dmr