From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tom Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:34:35 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> <87630n6odf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278837302 15229 80.91.229.12 (11 Jul 2010 08:35:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:35:02 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 11 10:34:58 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXs00-00079C-AU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:34:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38883 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OXrzz-00075f-OM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:34:55 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=35094 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OXrzu-00075V-EV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:34:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXrzt-0003ZF-7D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:34:50 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:49393) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXrzs-0003Z6-Ti for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:34:49 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXrzo-00075E-EF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:34:44 +0200 Original-Received: from 94-21-223-52.pool.digikabel.hu ([94.21.223.52]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:34:44 +0200 Original-Received: from levelhalom by 94-21-223-52.pool.digikabel.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:34:44 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 52 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 94.21.223.52 (Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; U; en) Presto/2.6.30 Version/10.60) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127034 Archived-At: David Kastrup gnu.org> writes: > > > > There is no reason to use the word yank for an operation which practically > > every other system calls paste. It's one of those totally unnecessary > > roadblocks for newbies in emacs. > > Au contraire. If the operations were named "cut" and "paste", the > newbie would be completely without mnemonics for C-k, C-y and their ilk. > This could be the other part of making Emacs more easy to use for newbies. For cut/copy/paste the most popular systems all have an accepted de facto standard: GNOME/KDE/Windows: control-X/C/V Macintosh: Command X/C/V A new user who takes a look at emacs (while having lots of other options like Eclipse and stuff) obviously accepts these keyboard shortcuts to work. C-y is not superior to C-v. It's different and has no intrinsic advantage. I understand hardcore emacs users don't want to use different keys and it is perfectly acceptable. But they can easily configure emacs while newbies can't. The default Emacs configuration should support the keys above (and similar editing keys commonly used in different operation systems) and there should be a single setting like (classic-mode 1) or something which seasoned emacs users could put into their config files to make keys work like it works today. It will not happen, obviously, judging from the responses sent to this thread, because veteran users want to keep things the way they are. They want people to change their ways to use emacs, instead of changing emacs to be more similar to popular tools to ease the entry for new users. Most people won't change their usual ways for the sake of using emacs, because they expect basic things (like copy/paste) to work as they work everywhere else out of box without any configuration. And it's an acceptable expectation. Why should they spend time to configure such basic things to try an obscure editor? They won't do that and that's why with time emacs will probably be more and more an obscure editor. It's sad, because it's such a great tool, and I don't want to see it fade away in obscurity. But if easy of entry is not increased for casual users then it is the most probable future for our beloved editor.