"scroll-fringe"

"scroll-fringe"

[ken manheimer]

i tend to run emacs with minimal decorations, and would *love* to see
an option to use the fringes for some of the scrollbar functionality.
i am not close enough to the details of the display, scrollbars, or
fringe to implement it myself, but i think this idea would be a
winning UI improvement, if anyone is interested.

i've been thinking for a while about the usefulness of the scrollbar
versus its space consumption and visual incongruity, and recently
turned the scrollbar off.  the only thing i miss is the opportunity to
see at a glance the proportion of the buffer that the window covers,
and it seems like that would not at all be a hard thing to implement
in the fringes, given the right knowledge.  a couple of frames
customization options to turn on "fringe buffer proportion
indicators", and i would be quite happy!

it might not be that hard to implement grab-and-drag scrolling with
the fringe indicators, as well. i don't really care about that - find
scrollbar dragging much less useful than keyboard navigation - but it
would make replacement of the scrollbar so much more viable as an
option for more people that it could help justify the invested work.
i would be perfectly happy if only the proportion indicators were
implemented, however.  the frame is really so much more tidy and
compact without the darn scrollbars!

by way of context, i run emacs without buffer tabs, menu bar, or even
window manager decorations.  i happen to find the fringe indicators
proportioned quite well for their purpose, particularly with their
size and style configurability.  i kept the scrollbar until recently
only for the sake of buffer/window proportion, and recently decided it
just wasn't important enough for the space consumed and the visual
discrepancy between the scroll bars with the rest of the frame.  (i
also run my frames with white text on black background, which probably
only increases the scrollbar's incongruity.)
--
ken
http://myriadicity.net

Re: "scroll-fringe"

[Stefan Monnier]

> i've been thinking for a while about the usefulness of the scrollbar
> versus its space consumption and visual incongruity, and recently
> turned the scrollbar off.  the only thing i miss is the opportunity to
> see at a glance the proportion of the buffer that the window covers,

Indeed, that was also my conclusion when I tried it: for actual
movement, scroll-wheels, key-shortcuts, as well as things like
mouse-drag-throw work just as well.

> and it seems like that would not at all be a hard thing to implement
> in the fringes, given the right knowledge.

I'm not completely convinced it's that easy to do right now.  But yes,
it could be done with some work at the C level.  But it would only be
meaningful if it works together with the usual fringe use.  If not, then
you may as well turn off the fringe and turn on the scrollbar.

As for me, I still have a scroll-bar, but I made it very thin (changing
the scroll-bar-width frame parameter).


        Stefan

Re: "scroll-fringe"

[Frank Schmitt]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> i've been thinking for a while about the usefulness of the scrollbar
>> versus its space consumption and visual incongruity, and recently
>> turned the scrollbar off.  the only thing i miss is the opportunity to
>> see at a glance the proportion of the buffer that the window covers,
>
> Indeed, that was also my conclusion when I tried it: for actual
> movement, scroll-wheels, key-shortcuts, as well as things like
> mouse-drag-throw work just as well.
>
>> and it seems like that would not at all be a hard thing to implement
>> in the fringes, given the right knowledge.
>
> I'm not completely convinced it's that easy to do right now.  But yes,
> it could be done with some work at the C level.  But it would only be
> meaningful if it works together with the usual fringe use.  If not, then
> you may as well turn off the fringe and turn on the scrollbar.
>
> As for me, I still have a scroll-bar, but I made it very thin (changing
> the scroll-bar-width frame parameter).

You guys could have a look at rxvt-unicodes scrollbar option called
plain which is similar to what's proposed for the fringe.

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Re: "scroll-fringe"

[ken manheimer]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

>> i've been thinking for a while about the usefulness of the scrollbar
>> versus its space consumption and visual incongruity, and recently
>> turned the scrollbar off.  the only thing i miss is the opportunity to
>> see at a glance the proportion of the buffer that the window covers,
>
> Indeed, that was also my conclusion when I tried it: for actual
> movement, scroll-wheels, key-shortcuts, as well as things like
> mouse-drag-throw work just as well.
>
>> and it seems like that would not at all be a hard thing to implement
>> in the fringes, given the right knowledge.
>
> I'm not completely convinced it's that easy to do right now.  But yes,
> it could be done with some work at the C level.  But it would only be
> meaningful if it works together with the usual fringe use.  If not, then
> you may as well turn off the fringe and turn on the scrollbar.

yeah - i would really be looking for a minimal indicator, like a
region colored differently than the other fringe indicators so the
other indicators could coexist with the new indicator bar.

> As for me, I still have a scroll-bar, but I made it very thin (changing
> the scroll-bar-width frame parameter).

it's handy to hear about both mouse-drag-throw and the
scroll-bar-width parameter!  i would be more comfortable with a
thinner scrollbar if i could get the colors more consistent with my
setup - customizing the scroll bar face doesn't seem to have any
effect at all.  am i trying to set the wrong thing?

anyway, thanks for the leads, and for considering the fringe
window/buffer indicator idea.  sounds like it could be viable, given
interest from someone w/the c-level chops.

>        Stefan

-- 
ken
http://myriadicity.net

Re: "scroll-fringe"

[Stefan Monnier]

>> As for me, I still have a scroll-bar, but I made it very thin (changing
>> the scroll-bar-width frame parameter).

> it's handy to hear about both mouse-drag-throw and the
> scroll-bar-width parameter!

> i would be more comfortable with a
> thinner scrollbar if i could get the colors more consistent with my
> setup - customizing the scroll bar face doesn't seem to have any
> effect at all.  am i trying to set the wrong thing?

This is a problem with the Gtk scrollbar, where the color is controlled
by the Gtk theme in use.  I personally hate that (all the themes I have
on this machine seem to be hideous in terms of how they blend with the
rest of my setup).


        Stefan