From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: DEL vs Backspace (was: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help') Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:47:51 -0400 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="331"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 17:48:41 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lagzx-000AZj-Al for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:48:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39420 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lagzw-00044h-E5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:48:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lagzS-0003en-OD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:48:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:10457) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lagzQ-00071r-Eg; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:48:09 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3EC9C4401E2; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 8B447440516; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:47:58 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1619365678; bh=nTLmradZ5/Oe/b8U6rpu1AYyoPCCyGQbVu5q7NYcwb0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ipXtXgAPowJ3sT9onYgs9gD86kihl3niW+83NR6Pfrm8896KLfvlAlSAGz4ds8zey qMkzHhcA6VsuuVPVNoiGKMC4PvU2bAkJfXSaGvXS01ngRnSx+VqiI93cLSOiyvobT0 b9S5RHBwD6Rl8wrOhK2aKY1Sd8dzeKZBcfajx9KI90NK06HVq0+A1XJLPaVujOBkRb 8IAqS+hcxX/D3VqifIfisn81eAhcpw+sjGCmOpTcM7EvS/x9osBPuA6+UnfTgo36mL xD7oAfsEfGlG4s6qMxXHQOyv6YhhTVapE/pzI5rNXXD1R1PoKPj3gUOxSLaHusHy3o YnvwT7S1lIj2A== Original-Received: from alfajor (104-222-126-84.cpe.teksavvy.com [104.222.126.84]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AC5812025D; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:47:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 24 Apr 2021 18:48:00 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268389 Archived-At: > As you say, this is an old problem. For example `C-h k ' > here gives a help screen that cryptically says "DEL (translated from > )". I suppose most users have no idea what that means, other > than some vague notion that "DEL is clearly just the same as backspace". This is harder to fix, but maybe we should tackle those problem. Basically, the issue is that we have two different events: the symbol `backspace` generated under GUIs and the DEL character (aka ^?) generated under ttys. The way we unify them is via `function-key-map` which maps `backspace` to DEL when there's no binding for `backspace`. Maybe we should inverse this mapping. Similarly for RET-vs-return and TAB-vs-tab. Another benefit in the long run would be to free C-i and C-m for the users to bind as they please in GUI frames. Stefan