From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: gtk scroll bar deficiency Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:11 -0400 Message-ID: References: <002201c7ae61$5d13fc00$d10990d4@j4f3n1> <87lkemki35.fsf@ambire.localdomain> <00b701c7aea8$72403de0$4a42fe91@j4f3n1> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1181847957 8978 80.91.229.12 (14 Jun 2007 19:05:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:05:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "grischka" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 14 21:05:55 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HyudG-0001Ns-3M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:05:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HyudF-0006EJ-O3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HyudC-0006EE-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:18 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HyudB-0006E2-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:17 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HyudB-0006Dz-EH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mercure.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.24.67]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HyudA-0004hl-HA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:17 -0400 Original-Received: from hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.50]) by mercure.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8742CF2F0; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (faina.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.26.177]) by hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322B53FE0; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 20E706C8CC; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:05:11 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <00b701c7aea8$72403de0$4a42fe91@j4f3n1> (grischka's message of "Thu\, 14 Jun 2007 19\:21\:10 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-DIRO-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DIRO-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-DIRO-MailScanner-SpamCheck: n'est pas un polluriel, SpamAssassin (score=-2.82, requis 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -2.82) X-DIRO-MailScanner-From: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:72889 Archived-At: > Anywho, for the records, this thread started with an user > reporting that in recent emacs scrolling down on the last > page ends up with an empty window which he summarized as: > "it looks like a bug to me..." Nice try. Go read the actual original message. It's got nothing to do with "ends up with an empty window", but rather with the size and position of the thumb. The "ends up with an empty window" is a debatable feature which we could change without too much difficulty and is unrelated to scrollbars and toolkits. The size and position of the thumb is a bug. But it's a bug which is only present with some toolkits because those toolkits make it particularly difficult for Emacs to do it right. So difficult that nobody has been able to do it yet. For Xaw3d I tried to do it in Emacs, with lots of work I got a very mixed result. Then I turned to the Xaw3d code and I fixed the whole thing by removing three lines (lines which are absent from Xaw, I should mention). Gtk/Motif and other toolkits enforce similar constraints for no technical reasons: just ideological ones. If these ideological reasons had to do with freedom and ethics, I could respect them, but GUI-dogma is not something for which I have any respect. Sorry. Stefan