From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2022 14:14:13 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7982"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Tim Cross , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 07 20:16:23 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nydkc-0001pV-6G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 20:16:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45170 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nydka-0001fK-U7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 14:16:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52560) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nydif-0000IP-CZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 14:14:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:27126) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nydic-0008RW-GQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2022 14:14:20 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6E0F24426F6; Tue, 7 Jun 2022 14:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 23E664426E3; Tue, 7 Jun 2022 14:14:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1654625655; bh=VEULeXczopc3OQVrDPD4y4dqlKMDsqCpn2zbnH0dbTo=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=RvohHIb7uIZ49hSfbKsg/A5Fyj94wPX2BzfJF5ieZNwRhwM0VPNJAut4dIsTBjvTC UlMQr5P7smV+8ixy1+zqGoM8zAp4L7m2TKX+V+DayPjePndcjQevBpOwXQUq+TyzZd SH/CZks4/WV+qc6EBTHX/BECQOucTQAbaf1WmtrQcl+dZePSUMEDdBsUrvnO7MZkI2 x5c0n5sez69TPz1YacyaGIRGzKeyHCJIojBtGgJP4pyWP4Cu4+DDdBPXFjxyn5vbQK KVWk1NHWieCk12JxpkziNwHgVdZ/K6WJqzD/iFomy89iSPjQ9mG83tt5MYHthHZadj tae7ACUpifa+A== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [45.44.229.252]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E4AB31204BD; Tue, 7 Jun 2022 14:14:14 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Tue, 7 Jun 2022 16:02:00 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290871 Archived-At: Rather than try and figure out who's right or wrong, I hope we can take advantage of this discussion to get some code out that try to solve the problem. AFAICT the problem seen from Emacs, is that Org is large (even for a basic uses, which occasionally leads to high load times) and that it doesn't follow all the usual Emacs conventions, such as overriding/remapping standard key-bindings (the resulting behaviors may sometimes be similar to the standard one, but even when that's the case the redefinition can easily bite the user). The problem seen from Org is that Emacs doesn't use Org enough :-) [ This paragraph's shorter length probably reflects the fact that I'm less familiar with Org than with Emacs. ] I think the way forward is to define a "basic org-mode". This one could be used at many more places where there's currently an occasional desire to use Org that's resisted because of the above problems. Ideally, org-mode would then be defined as an extension of this "basic org-mode". Also ideally some of those extensions would be reworked so they can be used "Emacs-wide" rather than only in Org (obviously, that can only make sense for some of them). We could start this "basic org-mode" as a trivial copycat of `outline-mode` and then start adding Org features to it. The driving constraint is to keep it lightweight and rules-abiding enough that there won't be any resistance to using it, while at the same time making sure that the features added to it can be removed from the "org-mode extension", so that org-mode and "basic org-mode" don't diverge. Stefan