From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:21:45 -0400 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmssd8j6.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1461"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Phil Sainty , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 28 21:24:16 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVIi7-00006n-Sd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 21:24:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37684 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVIi6-0005ab-Ef for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:24:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43732) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVIgT-0003sA-SJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:22:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:11687) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVIgQ-00024m-0k; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 782DE807F7; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0155C8075E; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:22:23 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1632856944; bh=m6z5WDbtvLkui+WeQe+lECg/3vFeQRYkwa20SGYwSlw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pSij90BU1libNalzfzbhMIr7Lrx0S3OWPoxIG3kUqR7vVaJnkU2agEoGhETZAmHmI vYszqBWWNFMZ52fKXiObQz3zGuBf5UYqMLCejwTqzOuoL1FcXLt93H8+AHyA0FdNX1 u/XGb9HdJ1KN+RckhGMQYVtcMD4MbrbJomI0ZuUDbLVMb3M6VT2Y0cxKYrgRJ2DUsD PL9XJVSKHgy6zwUHCkygYyZUPMJRvHCh2vZcDDu4V9hovNxL+/tgva8rZGE77gHMbD AgHUmVMz5yHOFmpW7bX4rNfdhIXiC/Vtmo6e/Swr61t9BUuhuonAc8yCY3q3Jyrw/x keZvT2z+S0wIg== Original-Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCF1F12004D; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:22:23 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87pmssd8j6.fsf@gmail.com> (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Jo=E3o_T=E1vo?= =?windows-1252?Q?ra=22's?= message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:28:13 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275731 Archived-At: Jo=E3o T=E1vora [2021-09-28 16:28:13] wrote: > Stefan Monnier writes: >> It shouldn't be very hard [IOW, I encourage some of the readers here to >> go out and do it] to refine/extend the `find-function-regexp-alist` >> mechanism so that `M-.` jumps directly to the actual `:constructor` >> thingy or to the actual field corresponding to an accessor. > Regexps.... Ugh. Yup. FWIW, my suggestion above was meant to suggest to extend it so we can also have functions rather than regexps and let the function search for the field/constructor (but only after finding the `cl-defstruct` via regexp search ;-). > Shouldn't we invest in a proper macro-expanding and > source-tracking reader? It's been proposed but the only attempt at such a thing has been Alan's which had some serious drawbacks (making symbol equality more complex and costly). > I've recently some work for a Common Lisp annotation-based stepper > that correlates each evaluated form with a source position. I built > a working system and published a paper. Is there interest in such > a deeper Lisp introspection features for Emacs? Interest, yes. Do you have a URL for your paper? >>>> Long names being "tedious" (quoting the new info manual) to read >>>> and write seems like an insufficient reason, IMHO. >> As a researcher in programming languages, I tend to take it for granted >> that "syntax doesn't matter", but in reality details of syntax have >> enormous impacts on how languages are used and perceived, > Yes, when you're transferring programs between two well-behaved robotic > entities, syntax doesn't matter. For us PL people the reason why it doesn't matter is because we only look at the typing rules and dynamic semantics. We care more about how the grammar is written than about how programs are written. Stefan