From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 10:23:51 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87zginqohs.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15538"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Tim Cross , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 16:51:50 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyx0O-00051c-Ui for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 16:49:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43870 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyx0N-0007Y2-EE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 10:49:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55202) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nywbK-0005Xz-3H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 10:24:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:15286) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nywbF-0000hp-H1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 10:24:00 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 2251B440995; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 71B5D440154; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:23:54 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1654698234; bh=VJg/8KVvlK8NG/d7XqN44i1dRoJrwSPnHAkhF/ElXZw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=R+Zzcx1h0lRny4gd7pS/Nq95nJxlXoJw+aM5VjoBzqaveYMJYi/aLxNmsAIgbvvtm vGYbLL1vNv47AjMTQ4NPuN2mbmt53mvi8nljycmG3sVrBzMNip+V9183gfHxmXZFD0 WycVDSKnk6MlumYj3pb44NfKp7OmXT2qOfz6V0ng9sTgs1G/MysaKqVcK9MmqD4eHj Z/1wCZuzUuUu+xjiUsb50Z8kPiW18WK1ENThpQBo5WPanhKjaVsKAiS5VfdF3W/cCl 2JDZEYqrQRBfCy2WxoTSSFDlvs9+Pf03iQO5f4rg45tBw88EPTTSAbASdkSzatmmTw KQPBVRfFML5IA== Original-Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F566120204; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:23:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87zginqohs.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 08 Jun 2022 21:22:07 +0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308070 Ihor Radchenko [2022-06-08 21:22:07] wrote: > Stefan Monnier writes: >> AFAICT the problem seen from Emacs, is that Org is large (even for >> a basic uses, which occasionally leads to high load times) and that it >> doesn't follow all the usual Emacs conventions, such as >> overriding/remapping standard key-bindings (the resulting behaviors may >> sometimes be similar to the standard one, but even when that's the case >> the redefinition can easily bite the user). > I am not sure if I follow the argument. Major modes are allowed to > change defaults. For example, special modes often change truncate-lines > value. Org mode is also tweaking defaults (yes, many of them). I do not > see any problem here in general. > If you have some specific cases when Org mode alters Emacs defaults in a > way that bites the user, please give concrete examples. Otherwise, your > criticism is not very constructive. [ Alan gave one or two concrete examples of things that bit him. ] This is not a criticism, just a description of how Org is perceived from the side of "old-time Emacs users who aren't Org users". The key in what you wrote above is the "yes, many of them", which means that even tho those tweaks are minor they sum up to something that old-time users will almost inevitably bump into. It's not a problem for Org itself, and there are good reasons for each one of those tweaks, I'm sure, but it does create opposition to using Org "in core", such as in etc/NEWS. > This is reasonable. RMS also asked for this years back > https://orgmode.org/list/E1kIPh1-0001Lu-Rg@fencepost.gnu.org > Since we cannot start Org from scratch, factoring out individual modules > is taking a lot of time and having the hostile attitudes expressed in > some of the emails in this thread is not exactly encouraging. I know it's a lot of work and I'm glad you (plural) are taking it on, and I'm not very happy about some of the things that have been said in that thread, which is why I tried to start this thread. Stefan