choice for the new emacs icon

choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

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We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.

RMS said:
"They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
Please ask emacs-devel."

So here they are.
Please choose one.


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RE: choice for the new emacs icon

[Drew Adams]

> So here they are. Please choose one.

emacs_128-2.png is better than emacs_128-2.png.

1. The ~horizontal movement seems to be more in line with what a writing
hand would do.

2. If a letter is slanted at all, its top usually leans to the right (as in
italic or oblique), not to the left.

3. You can see the leftmost upcurve of the gnu horns better, so the horns
are more recognizable as such.

Nice image. Where would it be used? Would it also be used as a tiny, tiny
icon?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Mike Mattie]

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On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:35:16 -0800
Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> wrote:

> 
> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
> 
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between
> them. Please ask emacs-devel."
> 
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.
> 
http://www.gnu.org/graphics/meditate.html

I rather liked the GNU icon provided by Emacs.App: A gnu playing a
flute. They are both nicely done, but the meditating gnu stands apart.

my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Mike Mattie 

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Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jason Rumney]

Drew Adams wrote:
> Nice image. Where would it be used? Would it also be used as a tiny, tiny
> icon?
>   

I tried a simple scaledown to 16x16, and it doesn't look too bad, even 
after reducing to fewer colors. With some tuning (removing the shadow at 
small sizes, removing the 3D effect at low bit depths for example), it 
will look even better.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Please respect Mail-Followup-To: headers!

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

  > > So here they are. Please choose one.
  > 
  > emacs_128-2.png is better than emacs_128-2.png.

Typo

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

  > Drew Adams wrote:
  > > Nice image. Where would it be used? Would it also be used as a tiny, tiny
  > > icon?
  > >   
  > 
  > I tried a simple scaledown to 16x16, and it doesn't look too bad, even
  > after reducing to fewer colors. With some tuning (removing the shadow
  > at small sizes, removing the 3D effect at low bit depths for example),
  > it will look even better.

We'll get a complete set of sizes: 16, 24, 32, 48,64, 128, 256, and 512,
as bitmaps and also an svg version, together with the original sources.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Chong Yidong]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
>
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.

What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?

After all, that icon (or rather icon set) emerged after a length
debate that touched on many important points, such as visibility in
small sizes.  It would be incautious to switch to a new icon without a
very good reason.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Nick Roberts]

 > > So here they are.
 > > Please choose one.
 > 
 > What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?
 > 
 > After all, that icon (or rather icon set) emerged after a length
 > debate that touched on many important points, such as visibility in
 > small sizes.  It would be incautious to switch to a new icon without a
 > very good reason.

If the icon adopted for Emacs 22 is the notebook with an E shaped like horns,
then I like this more than the disk with a similar E shape and a pen.  I also
don't really see why we should be considering a new icon.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Thomas Lord]

Drew Adams wrote:
> emacs_128-2.png is better than emacs_128-2.png.
>   

That is very zen, man.

-t

RE: choice for the new emacs icon

[Drew Adams]

>   > > So here they are. Please choose one.
>   > 
>   > emacs_128-2.png is better than emacs_128-2.png.
> 
> Typo

Sorry. I meant emacs_128-2.png is better than emacs_128.png, IMO.

> That is very zen, man.

;-)

BTW, I agree with some others that we should keep the notebook icon we
decided on for Emacs 22. That's why I asked what this was to be used for and
whether it would also be used as a (tiny) icon.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
>
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.

version1

(version2 looks unbalanced and kind of cramped)

[BTW, why the change?  The "old" icon is only about what a year old, and
seems pretty nice...]

-Miles

-- 
(\(\
(^.^)
(")")
*This is the cute bunny virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Mike Mattie <codermattie@gmail.com> writes:
> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/meditate.html
>
> I rather liked the GNU icon provided by Emacs.App: A gnu playing a
> flute. They are both nicely done, but the meditating gnu stands apart.

That's always been one of my favorite GNU pictures, but I suspect it's
way too complicated to make a good icon at smaller sizes (on OSX, all
icons are the size of your head anyway, so I guess it probably works out
well there)....

-Miles

-- 
Education, n. That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish
their lack of understanding.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Thomas Lord]

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To my eye, version number one looks full of fear but the -2 version
looks simply intense.  (Nifty work, imo, btw.)

-t


Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
>
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
  > >
  > > RMS said:
  > > "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
  > > Please ask emacs-devel."
  > >
  > > So here they are.
  > > Please choose one.
  > 
  > What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?

The icons posted are not new, they are further refinements of 
emacs/etc/images/icons/emacs*.png
AFAIR they were discussed before being checked in.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>   > What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?
>
> The icons posted are not new, they are further refinements of
> emacs/etc/images/icons/emacs*.png AFAIR they were discussed before
> being checked in.

Those icons in the tree say "..._mac.png" -- i.e., they're for the mac,
and thus I suspect off most peoples' radar.

[OSX both has somewhat different conventions (e.g. pen == editor), and
seems to generally use much larger icons that other systems (so the
tradeoffs are different).  These new icons look very "OSX"...]

-Miles

-- 
Cabbage, n. A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a
man's head.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > >   > What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?
  > >
  > > The icons posted are not new, they are further refinements of
  > > emacs/etc/images/icons/emacs*.png AFAIR they were discussed before
  > > being checked in.
  > 
  > Those icons in the tree say "..._mac.png" -- i.e., they're for the mac,
  > and thus I suspect off most peoples' radar.

There was also some discussion of using the same icons on all platforms.
Which is desirable, we want users to recognize the emacs icon on all
platforms.

  > [OSX both has somewhat different conventions (e.g. pen == editor), and
  > seems to generally use much larger icons that other systems (so the
  > tradeoffs are different). 

We'll get a complete set of icons of different sizes. And from what I've
seen in a previous iteration they are not just scaled optically, a lot
of attention was payed to the details...

  > These new icons look very "OSX"...]

Which would be a positive thing, isn't it?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>   > These new icons look very "OSX"...]
>
> Which would be a positive thing, isn't it?

Um.

Icons on OSX are often very pretty and glossy looking, but they don't
necessarily mesh well with what's on other systems...

[e.g., the trend on OSX seems to be towards hyper-realistic icons,
whereas on other systems, icons tend to be more abstract.]

-Miles

-- 
The key to happiness
 is having dreams.      [from a fortune cookie]

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jan Djärv]

Dan Nicolaescu skrev:
> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
> 
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
> 
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.

I'd go for emacs_128.png.  But as others have pointed out, the current Emacs 
icon is not that old.  And I don't think these new ones are that much 
different to warrant a change.

	Jan D.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jan Djärv]

Mike Mattie skrev:
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:35:16 -0800
> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
> 
>> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>>
>> RMS said:
>> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between
>> them. Please ask emacs-devel."
>>
>> So here they are.
>> Please choose one.
>>
> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/meditate.html
> 
> I rather liked the GNU icon provided by Emacs.App: A gnu playing a
> flute. They are both nicely done, but the meditating gnu stands apart.
> 

I don't think that would look so good in size 16x16.

	Jan D.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:
> I'd go for emacs_128.png.  But as others have pointed out, the current
> Emacs icon is not that old.  And I don't think these new ones are that
> much different to warrant a change.

AFAICS, the main difference is that they follow some sort of OSX
convention for editors -- the fountain pen in the corner.

So that may be the right thing on OSX, but seems a bit questionable on
other systems.  It's not just that conventions differ on other systems,
but the apparent main point -- the pen -- is missing in the smaller
versions that will often be used on non-OSX systems (OSX uses huge icons
compared to most systems).  Once that pen is gone, you're left with some
horns or an Ein a blue circle... not exactly an improvement, it seems to
me... [it will look even _more_ like the debian iceweasel icon...]

-Miles

-- 
It wasn't the Exxon Valdez captain's driving that caused the Alaskan oil spill.
It was yours.  [Greenpeace advertisement, New York Times, 25 February 1990]

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Tassilo Horn]

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Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

Hi Miles,

>>   > These new icons look very "OSX"...]
>>
>> Which would be a positive thing, isn't it?
>
> Um.
>
> Icons on OSX are often very pretty and glossy looking, but they don't
> necessarily mesh well with what's on other systems...
>
> [e.g., the trend on OSX seems to be towards hyper-realistic icons,
> whereas on other systems, icons tend to be more abstract.]

The new icons match KDE4's Qxygen theme quite good.  It seems they
adopted the convention that editors use a pen in their icon.  For
example the attached png is the new icon for KDE's text editor kate.
The new emacs icon would fit very well in that environment.


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What version I like better?  Hard to say.  Version one looks a bit
cleaner, I'd say, but if you are no insider you wouldn't recognize the
horns.  So in that respect version 2 is better, but the fact that both
the pen and the E lean into the same direction but with slightly
different angles disrupts my sense of symmetry.  Maybe that could be
fixed with moving and inclining the pen a bit.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jan Djärv]

Miles Bader skrev:
> Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:
>> I'd go for emacs_128.png.  But as others have pointed out, the current
>> Emacs icon is not that old.  And I don't think these new ones are that
>> much different to warrant a change.
> 
> AFAICS, the main difference is that they follow some sort of OSX
> convention for editors -- the fountain pen in the corner.
> 
> So that may be the right thing on OSX, but seems a bit questionable on
> other systems.  It's not just that conventions differ on other systems,
> but the apparent main point -- the pen -- is missing in the smaller
> versions that will often be used on non-OSX systems (OSX uses huge icons
> compared to most systems).  Once that pen is gone, you're left with some
> horns or an Ein a blue circle... not exactly an improvement, it seems to
> me... [it will look even _more_ like the debian iceweasel icon...]

Is there a 16x16-version somewhere one can look at?  Big icons ususally look 
good, but will the pen be visible in 16x16?

	Jan D.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:

  > Miles Bader skrev:
  > > Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:
  > >> I'd go for emacs_128.png.  But as others have pointed out, the current
  > >> Emacs icon is not that old.  And I don't think these new ones are that
  > >> much different to warrant a change.
  > >
  > > AFAICS, the main difference is that they follow some sort of OSX
  > > convention for editors -- the fountain pen in the corner.
  > >
  > > So that may be the right thing on OSX, but seems a bit questionable on
  > > other systems.  It's not just that conventions differ on other systems,
  > > but the apparent main point -- the pen -- is missing in the smaller
  > > versions that will often be used on non-OSX systems (OSX uses huge icons
  > > compared to most systems).  Once that pen is gone, you're left with some
  > > horns or an Ein a blue circle... not exactly an improvement, it seems to
  > > me... [it will look even _more_ like the debian iceweasel icon...]
  > 
  > Is there a 16x16-version somewhere one can look at?  

Not yet, we got just the ones posted, the other versions will follow.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Mike Mattie]

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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 09:10:05 +0100
Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> wrote:

> Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:
> 
> Hi Miles,
> 
> >>   > These new icons look very "OSX"...]
> >>
> >> Which would be a positive thing, isn't it?
> >
> > Um.
> >
> > Icons on OSX are often very pretty and glossy looking, but they
> > don't necessarily mesh well with what's on other systems...
> >
> > [e.g., the trend on OSX seems to be towards hyper-realistic icons,
> > whereas on other systems, icons tend to be more abstract.]
> 
> The new icons match KDE4's Qxygen theme quite good.  It seems they
> adopted the convention that editors use a pen in their icon.  For
> example the attached png is the new icon for KDE's text editor kate.
> The new emacs icon would fit very well in that environment.
> 

It may be worth considering that Emacs is a bit more than just a text editor.
I can't think of another editor that has a native browser implementation.

Presenting Emacs as an editor is analogous to presenting mathematics as arithmetic.
I think Emacs is unique enough that the standard categorizations do not suffice
allowing quite a bit of leeway in choosing an icon. What is the standard symbol for
a hosted lisp environment ? :)


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Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>>
>> RMS said:
>> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
>> Please ask emacs-devel."
>>
>> So here they are.
>> Please choose one.
>
> version1
>
> (version2 looks unbalanced and kind of cramped)

Version 1 is more visually pleasing, but it falls short on making the
horns and implied "M" recognizable.

So my vote is on version 2, preferably after its overall composition has
been more refined.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Mike Mattie <codermattie@gmail.com> writes:

> Presenting Emacs as an editor is analogous to presenting mathematics
> as arithmetic.

Which is perfectly fine for an icon.  We discussed the current design
for months.  Please don't start this again.  At the very least, read the
complete previous discussion.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bastien Guerry]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
>
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.

I prefer emacs_128.png over emacs_128-2.png.  The first image goes up
while the second image goes down.  Emacs goes up, not down.  

-- 
Bastien

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>
>> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>>
>> RMS said:
>> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
>> Please ask emacs-devel."
>>
>> So here they are.
>> Please choose one.
>
> I prefer emacs_128.png over emacs_128-2.png.  The first image goes up
> while the second image goes down.  Emacs goes up, not down.  

Our current icons lean forward (making the "M" and the horns more
conspicuous) and still "go up".  So I don't think that we should be made
to pick between two new icon variants which are both visually worse in
that respect.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Leo]

On 2008-02-05 06:18 +0000, Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> The icons posted are not new, they are further refinements of
> emacs/etc/images/icons/emacs*.png AFAIR they were discussed before
> being checked in.

The new icon looks much better and fits in well with any desktop in use
nowadays.

-- 
.:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.

          Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Robert J. Chassell]

    ... editors use a pen ...

I know that Emacs advertises itself as an editor, but it does more:
besides run other computer processes, Emacs is a tiling window
manager, a user interface that works with or without X windows on both
TTYs and others, remotely and locally.

In such a logo, a pen is misleading.  Certainly, the pen will vanish
when the size of the logo becomes 16 by 16 pixels, but then why
change?

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         bob@gnu.org
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2008-02-05 06:18 +0000, Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>> The icons posted are not new, they are further refinements of
>> emacs/etc/images/icons/emacs*.png AFAIR they were discussed before
>> being checked in.
>
> The new icon looks much better and fits in well with any desktop in use
> nowadays.

I think the current ones fit better with a standard GNOME desktop (which
is, after all, one of the two GNU desktops, the other being GNUstep).

In any case, there seems to be little point to have a regression with
regard to the leaning/orientation: that was pretty much perfect and the
result of long discussions and redrafting.  The proposed two new icons
are either leaning too far left, or too far right.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Richard Stallman]

    In any case, there seems to be little point to have a regression with
    regard to the leaning/orientation: that was pretty much perfect and the
    result of long discussions and redrafting.  The proposed two new icons
    are either leaning too far left, or too far right.

Are you trying to vote for a centrist?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Richard Stallman]

    Our current icons lean forward (making the "M" and the horns more
    conspicuous) and still "go up".  So I don't think that we should be made
    to pick between two new icon variants which are both visually worse in
    that respect.

I'm sure we could add a pen to the current icon if that is what people
prefer.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Nick Roberts]

 > I'm sure we could add a pen to the current icon if that is what people
 > prefer.

The current icon is fine.  I think we integrate with the desktop through dbus
support, status icons etc, not by adding a pen at some specified angle to the
Emacs icon.  If a user can't grok that a notebook represents an editor then I
think he will have trouble grasping the subtleties of Emacs.

-- 
Nick                                           http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Richard Stallman writes:
 >     In any case, there seems to be little point to have a regression with
 >     regard to the leaning/orientation: that was pretty much perfect and the
 >     result of long discussions and redrafting.  The proposed two new icons
 >     are either leaning too far left, or too far right.
 > 
 > Are you trying to vote for a centrist?

David knows better than that!  I'm sure he meant to say that it should
lean much farther, but both right and left at the same time.  Just
like free software ....

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > > We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
  > >
  > > RMS said:
  > > "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
  > > Please ask emacs-devel."
  > >
  > > So here they are.
  > > Please choose one.
  > 
  > What's wrong with the "new Emacs icon" that we adopted for Emacs 22?

Here are some disadvantages of the old icon:
 - we don't have an svg version of it.
 - we don't have a full set of sizes. Here are the sizes that are
 present on Fedora8:
   16x16  22x22  24x24  32x32  36x36  48x48  64x64  72x72  96x96  128x128  192x192 scalable
 not all applications provide all of them.  It would be hard to provide
 the bigger sizes.
 - we don't have versions for Mac and for windows (this one probably can
   be arranged)
 - it was a one off thing, the author has not been active in emacs after
 doing it.

The advantages for the new one:
 - it looks better IMO
 - the author has been willing to refine the icon, so he has an interest
 in emacs.  Given that we don't really have contributors that can do
 things like this, we want to attract future possible contribution on
 the artistic side. We do need more and better icons for the tool-bar.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jason Rumney]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>  - we don't have versions for Mac and for windows (this one probably can
>    be arranged)
>   
nt/icons/emacs.ico
Doesn't mac use png icons?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Leo]

On 2008-02-06 05:47 +0000, Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>  - the author has been willing to refine the icon, so he has an
>  interest in emacs.  Given that we don't really have contributors that
>  can do things like this, we want to attract future possible
>  contribution on the artistic side. We do need more and better icons
>  for the tool-bar.

I agree with this.

-- 
.:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.

          Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2008-02-06 05:47 +0000, Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
>>  - the author has been willing to refine the icon, so he has an
>>  interest in emacs.  Given that we don't really have contributors that
>>  can do things like this, we want to attract future possible
>>  contribution on the artistic side. We do need more and better icons
>>  for the tool-bar.
>
> I agree with this.

But that requires more than one-way communication.  There have been
specific suggestions about this icon proposal (which basically boils
down to picking between two suboptimal versions).  If those don't make
it to the artist in question, neither will requests about new tool-bar
icons.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Taylor Venable]

For what it's worth, I prefer the second one.  The lack of a slant (or
the backwards slant) in to the "E" in the first one seems unnatural.
The shine highlight in the second one looks better with the script in
that position as well.

-- 
Taylor Venable            http://real.metasyntax.net:2357/

foldr = lambda f, i, l: (len(l) == 1 and [f(l[0], i)] or
                         [f(l[0], foldr(f, i, l[1:]))])[0]

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Juri Linkov]

> I think Emacs is unique enough that the standard categorizations do not
> suffice allowing quite a bit of leeway in choosing an icon. What is the
> standard symbol for a hosted lisp environment ? :)

λ

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Juri Linkov]

> The advantages for the new one:
>  - it looks better IMO
>  - the author has been willing to refine the icon, so he has an interest
>  in emacs.  Given that we don't really have contributors that can do
>  things like this, we want to attract future possible contribution on
>  the artistic side. We do need more and better icons for the tool-bar.

Maybe then every major Emacs version should have a new icon?  This will
help to visually distinguish icons for different Emacs versions.

It seems this is already a long established practice: Emacs 19 has a
kitchen sink icon, Emacs 20 - a mushroom, Emacs 21 - a gnu's head,
and Emacs 22 - a notebook.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
  > >  - we don't have versions for Mac and for windows (this one probably can
  > >    be arranged)
  > >   
  > nt/icons/emacs.ico
  > Doesn't mac use png icons?

It does, but it also needs bigger sizes up to 512x512 (?not sure about
the exact numbers)

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:
> It seems this is already a long established practice: Emacs 19 has a
> kitchen sink icon, Emacs 20 - a mushroom, Emacs 21 - a gnu's head,
> and Emacs 22 - a notebook.

Man that mushroom was a real classic...

;-)

-Miles

-- 
Acquaintance, n. A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not
well enough to lend to.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
> It does, but it also needs bigger sizes up to 512x512 (?not sure about
> the exact numbers)

For those times when an icon the size of your head is appropriate...

-Miles

-- 
Cat, n. A soft, indestructible automaton provided by nature to be kicked when
things go wrong in the domestic circle.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:
>> It seems this is already a long established practice: Emacs 19 has a
>> kitchen sink icon, Emacs 20 - a mushroom, Emacs 21 - a gnu's head,
>> and Emacs 22 - a notebook.
>
> Man that mushroom was a real classic...

Given the state of MULE in Emacs 20, a mushroom cloud would likely have
been more appropriate.  The investment into utf-8 now pays off, but boy
did it hurt at that time.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> Given the state of MULE in Emacs 20, a mushroom cloud would likely have
> been more appropriate.  The investment into utf-8 now pays off, but boy
> did it hurt at that time.

Dunno, never had any real problems with it.  Other than Naggum's
constant bleating, of course...

-Miles

-- 
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra.  Suddenly it flips over,
pinning you underneath.  At night the ice weasels come.  --Nietzsche

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>> Given the state of MULE in Emacs 20, a mushroom cloud would likely have
>> been more appropriate.  The investment into utf-8 now pays off, but boy
>> did it hurt at that time.
>
> Dunno, never had any real problems with it. 

Well, you are living in a country that makes do with the ASCII subset:
not much room for trouble there.  I certainly did experience problems.
\201 is probably a hard-wired visual for me.  After the Unicode merge,
there won't even be much of an opportunity for bugs/coding problems to
trigger \201 nostalgia.  We'll get different artifacts if at all.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Jason Rumney]

David Kastrup wrote:
> Well, you are living in a country that makes do with the ASCII subset:
> not much room for trouble there.  I certainly did experience problems.
> \201 is probably a hard-wired visual for me.  After the Unicode merge,
> there won't even be much of an opportunity for bugs/coding problems to
> trigger \201 nostalgia.  We'll get different artifacts if at all.
>   

What did Emacs 19 display for that particular ISO control character?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>> Well, you are living in a country that makes do with the ASCII subset:
>> not much room for trouble there.  I certainly did experience problems.
>> \201 is probably a hard-wired visual for me.  After the Unicode merge,
>> there won't even be much of an opportunity for bugs/coding problems to
>> trigger \201 nostalgia.  We'll get different artifacts if at all.
>>   
>
> What did Emacs 19 display for that particular ISO control character?

It is not an ISO control character.  It is a MULE character sequence
starter for the iso-latin-1 subset IIRC (which is why we will stop
seeing it, at least once no temporary/autosave files from Emacs 22 are
present anymore).  So you would have had no interesting opportunity to
see it in Emacs 19.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Stefan Monnier]

>> It does, but it also needs bigger sizes up to 512x512 (?not sure about
>> the exact numbers)
> For those times when an icon the size of your head is appropriate...

No: for those lucky people using 22" screens with 3840x2400 resolution.


        Stefan "Still hoping to get one of those"

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> For those times when an icon the size of your head is appropriate...
>
> No: for those lucky people using 22" screens with 3840x2400 resolution.
>
>         Stefan "Still hoping to get one of those"

Hopefully by the time those become widespread, everybody will have
switched to using SVG icons instead...

-Miles

-- 
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> For those times when an icon the size of your head is appropriate...
>> 
>> No: for those lucky people using 22" screens with 3840x2400 resolution.
>> 
>> Stefan "Still hoping to get one of those"

> Hopefully by the time those become widespread, everybody will have
> switched to using SVG icons instead...

Indeed.  Looking at the history of those monitors, I'd say they're
part of the past more than the future.  There is very little DPI
improvement in the large-screen sector, if any.  1600x1200 basically
can't be found below 20" any more (unless you get down to the 17"
laptop screens).


        Stefan

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bill Wohler]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> We got 2 versions for a replacement for the emacs icon.
>
> RMS said:
> "They both look good to me, but it is hard for me to choose between them.
> Please ask emacs-devel."
>
> So here they are.
> Please choose one.

I prefer emacs_128.png. I see it the most at 16x16 so it better sing
at that resolution :-).

There is precedent for changing the icon on each major release, so I'd
go along with the game.

Ideally, the icon should fit comfortably on many different kinds of
desktops, but given that many if not most of our icons are based upon
GTK, if we lean in any direction, I'd recommend that it be GNOME.

-- 
Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com>  http://www.newt.com/wohler/  GnuPG ID:610BD9AD

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Richard Stallman]

    There is precedent for changing the icon on each major release, so I'd
    go along with the game.

There is no policy against keeping the icon unchanged between major
releases.

Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
of all the Emacs icons.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     There is precedent for changing the icon on each major release, so I'd
>     go along with the game.
>
> There is no policy against keeping the icon unchanged between major
> releases.
>
> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
> of all the Emacs icons.

I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bastien Guerry]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>     There is precedent for changing the icon on each major release, so I'd
>>     go along with the game.
>>
>> There is no policy against keeping the icon unchanged between major
>> releases.
>>
>> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
>> of all the Emacs icons.
>
> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.

Isn't this supposed to reflect humour and history more than end user
polish?  BTW, I don't expect the users will deduce the actual design
and usefulness of GNU Emacs based on its icon.

-- 
Bastien

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Ralf Angeli]

* David Kastrup (2008-02-17) writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
>> of all the Emacs icons.
>
> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.

At least the kitchen sink reflects on the nature of Emacs in contrast to
a purple rubber ball.  And you can always use a hyper-realistic image of
a stainless steel sink in order to make it more appealing.  Of course
this won't help the uninitiated to get the connection between a kitchen
sink and Emacs.

-- 
Ralf

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Ralf Angeli <angeli@caeruleus.net> writes:

> * David Kastrup (2008-02-17) writes:
>
>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
>>> of all the Emacs icons.
>>
>> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
>> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.
>
> At least the kitchen sink reflects on the nature of Emacs in contrast to
> a purple rubber ball.  And you can always use a hyper-realistic image of
> a stainless steel sink in order to make it more appealing.  Of course
> this won't help the uninitiated to get the connection between a kitchen
> sink and Emacs.

Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Ralf Angeli]

* David Kastrup (2008-02-17) writes:

> Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
> my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.

A black hole?  If a pen should be added, make sure it's drawn outside of
the event horizon.

-- 
Ralf

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bastien Guerry]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Ralf Angeli <angeli@caeruleus.net> writes:
>
>> * David Kastrup (2008-02-17) writes:
>>
>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
>>>> of all the Emacs icons.
>>>
>>> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
>>> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.
>>
>> At least the kitchen sink reflects on the nature of Emacs in contrast to
>> a purple rubber ball.  And you can always use a hyper-realistic image of
>> a stainless steel sink in order to make it more appealing.  Of course
>> this won't help the uninitiated to get the connection between a kitchen
>> sink and Emacs.
>
> Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
> my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.

Maybe the Dali soft watch?

-- 
Bastien

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Bastien Guerry <Bastien.Guerry@ens.fr> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Ralf Angeli <angeli@caeruleus.net> writes:
>>
>>> * David Kastrup (2008-02-17) writes:
>>>
>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.  It was the funniest
>>>>> of all the Emacs icons.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
>>>> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.
>>>
>>> At least the kitchen sink reflects on the nature of Emacs in contrast to
>>> a purple rubber ball.  And you can always use a hyper-realistic image of
>>> a stainless steel sink in order to make it more appealing.  Of course
>>> this won't help the uninitiated to get the connection between a kitchen
>>> sink and Emacs.
>>
>> Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
>> my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.
>
> Maybe the Dali soft watch?

I haven't checked, but I rather doubt we have a copyright assignment
from Dali on file for Emacs.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Ralf Angeli <angeli@caeruleus.net>
() Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:50:12 +0100

   A black hole?  If a pen should be added, make sure it's drawn outside of
   the event horizon.

Q: When does an infinity sign look like warts on a frog?
A: http://www.gnuvola.org/art/emacs.svg

Ah well, back to the more abstract arts...

thi

RE: choice for the new emacs icon

[Drew Adams]

RMS> Maybe we should go back to the kitchen sink icon.
RMS> It was the funniest of all the Emacs icons.

Sure. It could be given a new look (?) (but not a newer sink). Go forward,
not back, but keep the spirit.

Why not be frivolous or impudent instead of designerish? It really doesn't
matter much what icon we use. But the less professional, serious, and
business-like the better, IMO. Let's lighten up, and not try to look classy
(for the icon).

If it somehow made a humorous statement about software freedom, without
being verbal (it's an icon) or preachy, then that would be a plus. Put
something on desktops all over the world that steps out of or upsets the
global corporate mindset a bit. Not offensive, but offbeat, or at least back
beat. That's Emacs - a different drum.

The mushroom had a lot going for it, too. Stood for unbounded imagination
(if not outright hallucination), in my book.

No flames, please - I'm OK with the 22.1 icon, the proposed round-button
icon, the retro sink icon, a new mushroom, abstract art, or anything else.
If we could get away with (ab)using the golden arches or some other
corporate logo in an Emacsy way, I'd probably vote for that.

Whatever it is, keep it simple.

DK> I don't think [the kitchen sink] properly reflects
DK> the end user polish we have taken pains to apply to
DK> Emacs in the last decade or so.

Right. It's just an icon. It doesn't need to have end-user polish. Emacs
needs to have good end-user behavior, but it doesn't need to have an icon
that "properly reflects" that. Emacs is free. And it's quite improper, if
you ask those who are proper.

RE: choice for the new emacs icon

[Drew Adams]

> Isn't this supposed to reflect humour and history more than end user
> polish?  BTW, I don't expect the users will deduce the actual design
> and usefulness of GNU Emacs based on its icon.

Humor and history. Amen.

And maybe a bit of inoffensive irreverence. An impudent wink, not a grimace.

Emacs is free. It has no customer base to avoid offending. It can go beyond
the least common denominator. It can be out of the box, over the top, and
off the wall if it wants. Free as in free.

It really doesn't matter what icon Emacs uses. It can use an icon that
transmutes or transfigures itself each day or after each access. Emacs can
take on any form. Emacs is a chameleon's chameleon, an octopus's garden of
delights.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Johan Bockgård]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
> my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.

A bikeshed.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
>> my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.
>
> A bikeshed.

Presumably a self-painting one.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Leo]

On 2008-02-17 15:10 +0000, Bastien Guerry wrote:
>> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
>> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.
>
> Isn't this supposed to reflect humour and history more than end user
> polish?  BTW, I don't expect the users will deduce the actual design
> and usefulness of GNU Emacs based on its icon.

Icon actually helps. I always feel that Firefox's success is partially
due to its icon.

-- 
.:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.

          Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2008-02-17 15:10 +0000, Bastien Guerry wrote:
>>> I don't think it properly reflects the end user polish we have taken
>>> pains to apply to Emacs in the last decade or so.
>>
>> Isn't this supposed to reflect humour and history more than end user
>> polish?  BTW, I don't expect the users will deduce the actual design
>> and usefulness of GNU Emacs based on its icon.
>
> Icon actually helps. I always feel that Firefox's success is partially
> due to its icon.

Linus Torvalds once jokingly stated that he considered the success of
the Linux kernel over 386BSD (available at a similar time) largely due
to the cool name people could associate with better than with a
combination of digits and letters.

I have my suspicion that there might be more truth to that than
comfortable.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Richard Stallman]

    > Emacs is more like a time sink rather than a kitchen sink.  But I have
    > my doubts that there would be an easily recognizable icon idea for that.

    A black hole?

How would we depict a black hole?

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Werner LEMBERG]

> How would we depict a black hole?

Simply no icon.


    Werner

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Miles Bader]

Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> writes:
>> How would we depict a black hole?
>
> Simply no icon.

Or a windows logo...

-Miles

-- 
Quotation, n. The act of repeating erroneously the words of another. The words
erroneously repeated.

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bastien]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 197 bytes --]

Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> writes:

>> How would we depict a black hole?
>
> Simply no icon.

Or a completely transparent one?

I attach an example of such an icon.  Please ask me for copyright.


[-- Attachment #2: emacs_black_hole.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 306 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 13 bytes --]


-- 
Bastien

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> How would we depict a black hole?
>> Simply no icon.
> Or a completely transparent one?
> I attach an example of such an icon.

Doesn't look transparent at all here: Gnus displayed it as opaque white
(funnily enough, it's the same color as my background).

> Please ask me for copyright.

I think we may also be at risk of bumping into patents on that one.


        Stefan

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Bastien Guerry]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 249 bytes --]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Doesn't look transparent at all here: Gnus displayed it as opaque white
> (funnily enough, it's the same color as my background).

What if you put your Gnus on grass?  Does the icon turns green?


[-- Attachment #2: transparent_screen.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 245178 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 214 bytes --]


>> Please ask me for copyright.
>
> I think we may also be at risk of bumping into patents on that one.

Yes.  We might as well check that there is no "double-click icon
opening" patent around there.

-- 
Bastien

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:58:32 +0000 Bastien Guerry wrote:

> Yes.  We might as well check that there is no "double-click icon
> opening" patent around there.

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/06/02/2222258.shtml

Not sure though if that covers the usual mouse on icon click.

David

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[Ralf Angeli]

* Richard Stallman (2008-02-18) writes:

> How would we depict a black hole?

If I had to give serious answer I'd say with a nice picture showing
accretion disks and gas jets or showing the gravitational lensing in
front of a galaxy.  There are some nice pictures of this on the English
Wikipedia page about black holes.  However, I'm not sure if pictures
like this are suitable for an icon.

An unserious answer could be the drain of a kitchen sink.

-- 
Ralf

Re: choice for the new emacs icon

[David Kastrup]

Ralf Angeli <angeli@caeruleus.net> writes:

> * Richard Stallman (2008-02-18) writes:
>
>> How would we depict a black hole?
>
> If I had to give serious answer I'd say with a nice picture showing
> accretion disks and gas jets or showing the gravitational lensing in
> front of a galaxy.  There are some nice pictures of this on the English
> Wikipedia page about black holes.  However, I'm not sure if pictures
> like this are suitable for an icon.
>
> An unserious answer could be the drain of a kitchen sink.

The great kitchen sink in the sky...  Scary visual, man, just scary.
Come to think of it, this visual is probably already taken by van Gogh.
He has these swirly drain-like suns.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum