From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:04:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <54193A70.9020901@member.fsf.org> <87lhp6h4zb.fsf@panthera.terpri.org> <87k34qo4c1.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54257C22.2000806@yandex.ru> <83iokato6x.fsf@gnu.org> <87wq8pwjen.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837g0ptnlj.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3yxwdr6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx3tmi3t.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834mvttgsf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1411826725 7315 80.91.229.3 (27 Sep 2014 14:05:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:05:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: handa@gnu.org, stephen@xemacs.org, David Kastrup , dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 27 16:05:17 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XXsce-0000KW-Ub for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:05:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55958 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXsce-0000ET-EH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:05:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXscL-0000BO-3x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:05:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXscF-0002rA-P5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:04:57 -0400 Original-Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:27648) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XXsc4-0002qD-E6; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:04:40 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArUGAIDvNVNFxKjo/2dsb2JhbABZgwaDSsA9gRcXdIIlAQEBAQIBJy8jBQsLFAEfEhQYDSQTG4dKAwkI0hkXjnoHhDgEqRmBaoNMIQ X-IPAS-Result: ArUGAIDvNVNFxKjo/2dsb2JhbABZgwaDSsA9gRcXdIIlAQEBAQIBJy8jBQsLFAEfEhQYDSQTG4dKAwkI0hkXjnoHhDgEqRmBaoNMIQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,753,1389762000"; d="scan'208";a="91032823" Original-Received: from 69-196-168-232.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.168.232]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 27 Sep 2014 10:04:33 -0400 Original-Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 842F07D13; Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:04:33 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <834mvttgsf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 27 Sep 2014 15:00:00 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 206.248.154.181 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:174740 Archived-At: Could you move on to some other discussion? I mean, it's not like this is a problem we need to fix now (if ever). So let's cross this bridge when we get there. Stefan >>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: David Kastrup >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Kenichi Handa , >> dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 13:13:26 +0200 >> >> However, the problems specific to R->L typesetting are mostly not in the >> character set and string handling area but rather concern the display >> algorithms where we already found that supporting all the functionality >> of Emacs is not well-supported by industry-standard solutions like >> Pango. > Only people who don't speak any of the R2L languages can seriously > claim that using Pango/Cairo is the way to support R2L in Emacs. > There are just too many quirks that Emacs needs for user satisfaction > that an external GP renderer can never provide. > Using Pango also means you are at the mercy of their developers as far > as bidi is concerned. And it doesn't help that the development in > that area is not really "alive and kicking" as one would hope; e.g., > the latest changes in UAX#9, released with Unicode 6.3 a year ago, are > still not supported in Pango or FriBidi. > Besides, using Pango means no bidi in text-mode frames. (Some people > say this should be delegated to bidi-aware terminal emulators, like > PuTTY and some Linux-based emulator whose name I don't remember, but > that's again only because those people don't use the R2L scripts. > Doing bidi display for TTY Emacs this way is simply unworkable.)