From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:54 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40868"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 15:43:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpBXd-000ATx-1T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:43:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49018 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpBXc-00068Q-09 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:43:04 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpBL0-0008Hl-1t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:30:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:37432) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpBKx-0004Zq-3Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:30:00 -0500 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3FF9080241; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:57 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 95257805BE; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:55 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1608042595; bh=EKNmOTVO2/vyzCAq9Tlfe+gQ81TXaXWnMn2SOMYAm8A=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dNy+LtpKDVMb66+Se13oJ1GuzJpep8R9dQKk8aNQExB0KUtgnQpnQbi9R1pjzBbbY 3+lgOmmj4SX62RFMeXD907E/etODfqX00PKf7tC8m39Of691pgeccApo/N07tiV07j cbC7NVyNcv3HSqJTfVHOUguOTuQmk6b5vusI2FzmN7/Cj9GO5/aP9tqEMeusiL8ZkZ 27ymjTSE5WkOu0uChbuANPd5rPkH+QX18EoFz4hwTMLIc2bCEUH/x1bagbNkACuvuD Gs3aV+7FdHWIoLSaX7ecdIpUr+ZX77M0CEORJNvss48NPw0SgBmJ1qqG8dgR6dDTr4 sZmBNjpm/66Mg== Original-Received: from alfajor (69-165-136-52.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.165.136.52]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A8691204C5; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:29:55 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:30:20 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260865 Archived-At: > Of 7.3K respondents, 5K disable toolbars, which is more than two > thirds. So perhaps toolbars should default to off? I know toolbars > were all the rage in the 90s, but that's apparently not the case now. FWIw, I believe the toolbar should behave a bit more like the header-line: it should not "default to off" but instead it should only exist in those buffers where it is useful. IMO a toolbar should contain things that are used often, and by "often" I don't mean "in most sessions" but rather often enough that the time taken to pick it from the menu-bar would be excessive. Contrary to the menu-bar, the toolbar is not a good way to advertise Emacs's functionality because there just isn't enough room to put that info, so to justify its existence it should be *useful*. For most major modes, it's hard to find a justification for a toolbar, and for some major modes, OTOH, it's a no-brainer (e.g. mpc.el). But I don't think we've done a good job of making use of the toolbar for the middle ground. IOW, the current tool-bar is a mechanism that we haven't really tried hard to make use of it. Maybe instead of "actions" it should mostly contain "toggle buttons" for minor modes (and maybe these would need to be new minor modes, since most of our minor modes are designed under the principle that they're not toggle at a high frequency)? Stefan