From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:36 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <57491476-b7d1-ed1e-9eaf-bc45db607ae8@yandex.ru> <835zd2bf2h.fsf@gnu.org> <1c43f78b-2bc5-8c81-4a57-ba63bb721c85@yandex.ru> <83wo5i9z21.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wm9uy7.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="77993"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , dgutov@yandex.ru, cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 12 05:48:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYLu5-000KBn-Fd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 05:48:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46968 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYLu4-00036d-Ga for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:48:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYLtP-0002HQ-Sr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:13358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYLtO-0007yi-9c; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:43 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 36B51450C1C; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 608B044E629; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:38 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1589255258; bh=RhZ3a6h2qu7IlC8C2z8ogplKE8c2eSyzE89aiR/UNA0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=m3jKug/h9A5O5Y7lYa7oHrgaSmbdmZ232Skz9XqQriA3smlXH158zaSnE0OHd8h4x CzUFuRWhjTa605AmK2uElIYrr5H8LszH7Xd/MXxS8k/J4RFFOZlR1xvmA7ZG56vfrP EVOrz8hGf/QJk5NkkzjFYQfXh4tZE+sWIE2aeUKa/hMMYOZ1IiEZZrVERVTjuBAUlh fgYcBCvHlLMLr0FdYA7ZB0e518w9kwoljaHDunYGy+qSoIl676UHngNLFPb28AXUrm JYAOVLMisd77a6pynANtm7ZTMnyA0Pwv3rdz+7Wi8hU9CHADPzuslnczYPiEgeUmfp fpiPYe5A+rl0w== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [216.154.3.202]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B20612068D; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:47:37 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 11 May 2020 23:17:19 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/11 23:10:21 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249934 Archived-At: > We exist in a world in which lots of people willingly accept > practices that our goal is to eliminate. That means we walk > a narrow ridge. On one side, we could risk endorsing and > supporting exactly the wrongs we denounce. On the other side, > we risk becoming less popular. > > We want to avoid the latter, but we abolutely must avoid > the former. Popularity is not success if it comes at the cost > of abandoning our goal. > > Therefore we do not recommend MELPA. We do not mention the existence > of about MELPA. If people know about it anyway, that is not our doing > so we are not morally responsible. If I were a maintainer or contributor of MELPA, I'd be offended by what you wrote. While MELPA does contains a few Free Software packages which only work when coupled with proprietary software, the *vast* majority of the packages are nothing but Free Software. > > The way I see it, currently Emacs de-facto recommends to most of its > > users to add MELPA to their `package-archives`. > To balance between the two cliff edges, we have to recognize both edges. > The expression "de facto recommends" denies one of them; it equates > staying on the ridge with falling off. That would be self-defeating, > so we insist on the distinction and do not equate those. Our unwillingness to make Free Software packages like Magit or Tuareg easily installable into Emacs with no extra configuration forces many of our users to add MELPA to their `package-archives`. So, I stand by my claim that we de facto recommend to most of our users to add MELPA to their `package-archives`, and if you think we don't, I think you're just deluding yourself. > > Of course, those few not-quite-libre packages could pose problems for > > that since they go against some of our values, so maybe we should not > > add MELPA itself, but the "libre-MELPA" subset (which someone will have > > to create and maintain). > That would not go against or morals. It is not absolutely out of the > question. But it would have a big drawback of a different kind: we > would effectively lose control over an aspect Emacs development. I think your judgment is quite faulty here, for the simple reason that you don't understand the extent of the amount of development that's taking place outside of emacs-devel and over which we hence already have no control. Stefan