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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: What improvements would be truly useful?
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 23:43:57 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwvh8ppna6n.fsf-monnier+Inbox@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87o9jy9uq4.fsf@mbork.pl> (Marcin Borkowski's message of "Thu, 08 Mar 2018 21:29:39 +0100")

> Interesting.  I have a very similar sentiment, though I think it is
> quite irrational.
> Is mu4e, Org-mode, Calc, or dunnet also "not Emacs"?  If not, how is it
> different than a word processor?

I don't think I can clearly pin-point the problem, but I think the issue
has to do with hiding information: WYSIWYG hides information, in the
sense that there are many different documents with the same visual
appearance, so the user needs to *guess* what is the underlying
document's structure in order to know what his actions will really do.
A typical example is the beginning/end of a bold text which is only
implicitly represented by the fact that some text is bold and other
isn't, but that doesn't let you easily tell whether a new word inserted
between a bold work and a non-bold word will be bold or not.

Of course Emacs can also hide information (as text-properties, as
invisible text, as data stored in buffer-local variables, ...) but most
packages follow a design where as little info as possible is hidden.
Indeed, whenever I hide such information, I think it over many times
because I know there's a very strong chance that users won't like it.

Also when it comes to data that we edit, hiding information either means
hiding it as invisible text (which tends to be fiddly, so it's used
fairly sparingly), or it implies using a complex procedure to `find` and
to `save` the buffer in order to translate between the file contents and
the in-buffer contents.  This complexity is a strong encouragement not
to go down that route.


        Stefan



  reply	other threads:[~2018-03-09  4:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 196+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <87inaiss6l.fsf@web.de>
     [not found] ` <6FCF6ACA-4F29-4B6B-BE9D-D7130C6E9495@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <87fu5moe4c.fsf@web.de>
     [not found]     ` <877eqyocro.fsf@web.de>
     [not found]       ` <83zi3uz4nb.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-03-01 23:22         ` Let's make the GC safe and iterative (Was: Re: bug#30626) Daniel Colascione
2018-03-01 23:29           ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-05  6:31             ` Ken Raeburn
2018-03-05 13:11               ` What improvements would be truly useful? Richard Stallman
2018-03-05 14:02                 ` John Yates
2018-03-05 17:21                   ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-05 16:33                 ` Stefan Monnier
2018-03-05 17:32                 ` Rostislav Svoboda
2018-03-05 18:04                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 19:18                     ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-05 20:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 23:05                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-05 23:16                         ` dancol
2018-03-06 20:54                           ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-06 21:15                             ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-08  4:45                             ` Stefan Monnier
2018-03-08  9:16                               ` Jefferson Carpenter
2018-03-08  9:17                               ` Yuri Khan
2018-03-08 13:40                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 20:07                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-08 20:29                               ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-09  4:43                                 ` Stefan Monnier [this message]
2018-03-09 22:20                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-09 22:42                                     ` Karl Fogel
2018-03-11 17:02                                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-06 20:01                         ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-06 20:32                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 20:41                             ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-07 17:13                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 18:30                                 ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-07 19:36                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 20:49                                     ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-03-07 23:00                                 ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-09 10:56                             ` Phillip Lord
2018-03-09 13:53                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 16:02                                 ` Phillip Lord
2018-03-10 18:56                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 22:20                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-06 15:48                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2018-03-05 19:05                   ` Aaron Ecay
2018-03-05 20:55                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2018-03-05 23:05                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-09 11:02                     ` Phillip Lord
2018-03-09 22:20                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-10 20:23                         ` Phillip Lord
2018-03-11 23:26                           ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-05 17:57                 ` Variable-width font indentation (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 19:32                   ` dancol
2018-03-05 19:49                     ` Variable-width font indentation Paul Eggert
2018-03-06 15:15                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2018-03-06 15:34                         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 17:09                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 19:58                     ` Variable-width font indentation (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 20:28                       ` Variable-width font indentation Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-05 22:30                         ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-05 22:53                           ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-06  1:06                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06  1:30                             ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-06  1:40                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06  2:04                                 ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-06  3:36                                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 16:47                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 19:50                                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06  5:48                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-06 13:18                                     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 16:36                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 20:11                                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 20:40                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 13:15                                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-07 18:26                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 16:07                                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-07 22:13                                 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-08 13:21                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 14:05                                     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 16:16                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 16:38                                 ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-06 17:49                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 17:55                                     ` dancol
2018-03-06 20:18                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 20:20                                         ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-06 18:53                                   ` Sam Steingold
2018-03-06 22:43                                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2018-03-07 17:12                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 19:38                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-07 20:11                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 23:01                                         ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-08 12:33                                           ` Robert Pluim
2018-03-08 13:50                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 15:15                                               ` Robert Pluim
2018-03-06 20:52                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-06  4:05                         ` Herring, Davis
2018-03-06 13:33                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 14:18                             ` Herring, Davis
2018-03-06 15:02                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 16:11                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 19:59                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-06 20:31                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 21:15                               ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-06 21:47                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-07 17:22                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 18:27                                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-07 20:09                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 20:32                                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-08 15:39                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 16:30                                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-08 19:07                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 19:55                                               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-09  8:30                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 17:52                                                   ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-09 18:35                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 20:16                                                       ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-09 21:19                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 21:55                                                           ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-10  0:09                                                           ` James Cloos
2018-03-10  8:20                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 19:48                                                               ` James Cloos
2018-03-10 20:00                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 22:18                                                                   ` James Cloos
2018-03-11  3:43                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 19:48                                                   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-09 21:18                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 22:54                                                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-10  8:04                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10  4:27                                                     ` Yuri Khan
2018-03-10  8:39                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 11:42                                                         ` Yuri Khan
2018-03-10 14:28                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 13:49                                                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-08  4:50                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2018-03-08 13:44                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 22:03                                       ` Paul Eggert
2018-03-09  8:34                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-09 16:05                                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-09 16:21                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10  8:12                                               ` Variable-width font alignment Stephen Leake
2018-03-10  8:56                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10 17:30                                                   ` Stephen Leake
2018-03-10 19:02                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-10  7:42                                           ` Variable-width font indentation Stephen Leake
2018-03-06 16:35                         ` Stefan Monnier
2018-03-06 19:59                           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-03-05 23:05                   ` Variable-width font indentation (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Richard Stallman
2018-03-06 16:04                     ` Variable-width font indentation Stefan Monnier
2018-03-06 17:43                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 18:14                         ` Stefan Monnier
2018-03-06 20:56                         ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-06 20:55                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-07  7:05                         ` Yuri Khan
2018-03-06 16:14                     ` Variable-width font indentation (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 20:55                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-05 18:51                 ` What improvements would be truly useful? Daniele Nicolodi
2018-03-05 19:22                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06  6:32                     ` Daniele Nicolodi
2018-03-06 16:52                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-06 17:01                         ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-07  5:45                         ` Daniele Nicolodi
2018-03-07 17:45                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 17:49                             ` Daniele Nicolodi
2018-03-07 18:06                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-07 21:45                                 ` Philipp Stephani
2018-03-08 13:20                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-08 16:24                                     ` Alan Third
2018-03-08 18:02                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-06  7:48                     ` Yuri Khan
2018-03-06 17:08                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-03-05 21:15                   ` Juri Linkov
2018-03-05 23:46                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2018-03-06  3:36                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-04-02 20:40                       ` Continuous image scrolling (was: What improvements would be truly useful?) Juri Linkov
2018-04-03  1:59                         ` Continuous image scrolling Óscar Fuentes
2018-04-03  7:01                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-04-03 19:59                           ` Juri Linkov
2018-04-03 20:20                             ` Drew Adams
2018-04-04 19:54                               ` Juri Linkov
2018-04-03 21:08                             ` Stefan Monnier
2018-04-03 21:57                             ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-04-04  6:27                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-04-04 19:50                               ` Juri Linkov
2018-04-05  6:04                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-04-04 23:31                               ` Tak Kunihiro
2018-04-05  2:45                                 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-04-05  3:54                                   ` Tak Kunihiro
2018-04-05 19:56                                     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-04-05 22:59                                       ` Tak Kunihiro
2018-04-06  4:36                                         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-04-06  9:35                                           ` Tak Kunihiro
2018-04-04 19:19                           ` John Wiegley
2018-03-05 22:09                   ` What improvements would be truly useful? John Wiegley
2018-03-05 23:04                     ` daniel sutton
2018-03-06 20:51                     ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-08 11:44                 ` Toon Claes
2018-03-08 20:08                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-03-12 21:53                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2018-03-01 23:38           ` Let's make the GC safe and iterative Stefan Monnier
2018-03-02  0:05             ` Daniel Colascione
2018-03-02 13:47               ` Stefan Monnier

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