unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	 John Wiegley <johnw@newartisans.com>
Subject: Re: emacs-29 acd462b0306: ; Improve the use-package manual
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 11:20:14 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwvh6y3p8bl.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=OuwvADgVsF1F_nRG+KBUV_eHQYG8vSEFEZ-hnTDGRDA@mail.gmail.com> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 10 Dec 2022 03:57:02 -0800")

> The answer to your first question is yes: the macro-expansion of
>
>     (use-package foo)
>
> is just
>
>     (require 'foo nil nil)

BTW, I can't resist mentioning that `require`ing a file like that should
be extremely rarely needed in an init file.  There's a good reason for
that: by convention, the mere act of loading a file should not affect
Emacs behavior very much, if at all, so those `require` will usually
just slow down startup for no good reason.

I think this part of `use-package` is a result of its having been
designed before things like `package.el` became common practice (the
main effect of which (in this respect) has been to make `;;;###autoload`
cookies usable in all packages without any extra work on the package's
author's side).

(A similar "old style" thingy is that (use-package foo-mode :mode
".bar\\'") will setup an autoload for the `foo-mode` function, whereas
that autoload should have already been setup by the package's own
installation).

It would be nice to try and evolve `use-package` towards a default
behavior that's more aligned with current best practices rather than
what was done back when installing a package meant reading the
"Commentary:" section and copying a chunk of ELisp code into your
init file.

> The last two examples, using package-installed-p and locate-library, are
> more important to keep, as users have reported issues specifically
> related to not knowing what the difference is between them, for example:
>
>     https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package/issues/693

I think in most cases, neither of them are good choices.
Instead better choices will usually look like `:if (fboundp '...)`
(which should be a lot faster than `locate-library` and doesn't care
how the package was installed).

Also, the wording in that paragraph is weird:

    This example loads a package only when the @samp{foo} package
    is installed.

since users should rarely care about "loading" (since, as
mentioned earlier, this should have mostly no visible effect).
`use-package` should be about configuring packages, not about loading
them (the `;;;###autoload` cookies should take care of the loading part
already).

> Alternatively, we could perhaps consider changing the docstring of
> `package-installed-p' to just let people know of `locate-library' (and
> maybe even when to use it).

This doesn't sound right since those two are only distantly related.


        Stefan




  parent reply	other threads:[~2022-12-10 16:20 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 16+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <167059642832.4265.15913417645926264658@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org>
     [not found] ` <20221209143348.961DEC0E4CA@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org>
2022-12-10 11:57   ` emacs-29 acd462b0306: ; Improve the use-package manual Stefan Kangas
2022-12-10 14:26     ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-12-10 20:34       ` Stefan Kangas
2022-12-11  6:22         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-12-11 14:24           ` Stefan Monnier
2022-12-11 20:04             ` John Yates
2022-12-12  1:35               ` Stefan Kangas
2022-12-12  1:34             ` Stefan Kangas
2022-12-10 16:20     ` Stefan Monnier [this message]
2022-12-10 16:30       ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-12-10 16:40         ` Stefan Monnier
2022-12-12 19:37           ` John Wiegley
2022-12-12 20:06             ` Philip Kaludercic
2022-12-10 20:33       ` Stefan Kangas
2022-12-10 22:01         ` Stefan Monnier
2022-12-11  7:09           ` Eli Zaretskii

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=jwvh6y3p8bl.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org \
    --to=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca \
    --cc=eliz@gnu.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=johnw@newartisans.com \
    --cc=stefankangas@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).