From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:22 -0400 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> <87d084htcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <149F5B4D-F219-409C-A994-096C777259EC@icloud.com> <87v9lweynz.fsf@yahoo.com> <74B639DD-3775-4BE7-B0B2-300B5CE62E14@icloud.com> <87k12bewpq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rnacxr.fsf@yahoo.com> <877dyaye21.fsf@yahoo.com> <87blnlbnba.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v9lsqgqw.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="18074"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: me@enzu.ru, joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com, Richard Stallman , stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, pcr910303@icloud.com, eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, ndame@protonmail.com To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 19:01:59 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIl4-0004Y7-IF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:01:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54544 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIl3-0008HM-LC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:01:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55206) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIjk-00074V-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIji-0006Eo-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:21509) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRIjc-0005sX-MR; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:29 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 7B8D44503FB; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id EF73B4503F5; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:23 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1587574823; bh=626a2AzgmC8doGfRA/UetsYBm6fr7PUzHtPiUswVnQE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Bd2d4emnCZ7YRdckud4fZINMqNfYy7hw9zfYWR4i+8l5HMIKEm9arDcq3YvgodkvE 0COVHYzoOxkvSkVAZfTarPoYIlTHxHT9OaGM8V5Msm4XqpfhlwCo0cRjDbMF33mKBN mT81EBNoz/95xYY1YSvCepP+pXJk9Yf20gWvunYULZ5ELDKhLzpLLTwaQsPbwZ8Chp 9sl5M08itDXYzNT3GF7M/Agtf61xDajzP8BLu2dWMkVSMKWcRIJxKkxJBGiHIV1Qf/ NzPuY+YoSk9CwArYVmNw0ro+SfUahBTsqY6F77nYYmRX/WnWFyRk5QmRde7eo6FxJM JGzzm9JJFBiiw== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [104.247.241.114]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76E33120455; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:23 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87v9lsqgqw.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:36:07 +0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/22 12:45:57 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 132.204.25.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247526 Archived-At: >> I don't think the concept of "standard library" makes sense for Emacs >> Lisp. However, I conceptually divide the programming facilities >> of Emacs into >> >> * The Emacs Lisp language >> >> and >> >> * the editing facilities. Because of how it evolved, there is clear separation. And it's hard to retro-fit a distinction after-the-fact. But I personally do think of the Elisp world as split into various "layers": A- The core language itself. B- The core standard library. C- Extra libraries bundled with Emacs. D- Extra libraries distributed in GNU ELPA. E- Extra libraries distributed elsewhere. Yet, I would be hard pressed to draw the separation between some of those layers (and more so to "define" that separation). >> I see buffers as part of the editing facilities, not part of the Emacs >> Lisp language itself. Great example: putting it in (B) makes sense, yet at the same time I'd put buffer-local variables in (A), thus breaking the layering. > I'm not sure I see that distinction, since Emacs Lisp as a language > doesn't really make sense without the editing facilities. There are other implementations of Elisp, some of which are not tied to an editor, so it can make sense (see the paper Mike Sperber and I wrote for HOPL-2020 for an example). Stefan