From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proper namespaces in Elisp Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 17:06:17 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87ftcee7td.fsf@tromey.com> <87pnbgzdmx.fsf@tromey.com> <1225997b-648a-068d-7f6b-e1575477a0d0@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="82105"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Tom Tromey , =?windows-1252?B?Sm/jbyBU4XZvcmE=?= , emacs-devel To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 07 23:07:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnjY-000LEs-GT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 23:07:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47944 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnjX-0004tA-Ii for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 17:07:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnip-0003zK-Fb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 17:06:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:15673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnin-0001fD-Qp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 17:06:22 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id E0D6410125A; Thu, 7 May 2020 17:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 57ECF100F6F; Thu, 7 May 2020 17:06:19 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1588885579; bh=iSZQksVXyu1NBNyIJ9q3h6TCuV4QzggD5cHMifsnAFM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=b2xhW5q48TOlNeeAZSyGQ6lDRviGoTVFkexSDOThuKl30vjUxiaTWmdvyhpG2k5rW lbei9eTnoyc9SBIsxukcb1oT7FwzTvX2Wuts/ej9/A+ZRNTsypFfRkUhwz2v9oHWD+ T418oaDgmPjI6vzBrEMgz2g5EG7qthXkPgiGkclYfngJQxJWY3ptNSHbkxno7OHDVq fIgcP14P7fAVWJHJ5CBq4jU933Pe8d7N7QFD7EHONYPjEAaWypQQkM3Jvrb8mbQGBp Lt3hvSuFHptDZNhCjOX6phDb0LdAz6vsbWToVwpluixcEUpa36WhMmHQxsJpdPbHnE EgO5tq9Dm3Tvw== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [216.154.3.202]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D08C8120779; Thu, 7 May 2020 17:06:18 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1225997b-648a-068d-7f6b-e1575477a0d0@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Thu, 7 May 2020 13:42:46 -0700") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/07 14:17:40 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249222 Archived-At: >> You need not only discover the defining forms but also the "using" >> forms. So you need to know that the arguments to `make-local-variable`, >> `add-hook`, `symbol-value`, `facep`, ... (and all function that pass >> their arg to one of those) are not just random symbols (that you should >> leave untouched) but symbols that obey the namespace rules. > I think these situations are rare enough that we can ask people to pass > fully-qualified symbols. Experts would have no trouble dealing with that, indeed, but it would introduce extra complexity which will negatively affect the average user, I feel. > FWIW, I think elisp should just literally copy Common Lisp's approach. I thought your previous message was saying you don't like this approach (when you said "I don't like reader magic"). Is it that I misunderstood or that you don't much like the solution but think that from a pragmatic point of view it's still the better option? Stefan