From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:35 -0400 Message-ID: References: <864kmzupp0.fsf@akirakyle.com> <835z7e2ouj.fsf@gnu.org> <86v9fet5sg.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83imbe1040.fsf@gnu.org> <86pn5luak4.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83362g27y6.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38180"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , ak@akirakyle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 17 15:36:38 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTmNy-0009sU-9G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:36:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35802 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTmNx-0008PP-Aj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:36:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60858) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTmN5-0007YW-2V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:62746) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTmN2-0000W1-LB; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:42 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 2C0A4809C6; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 5AA578022C; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:36 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1602941736; bh=D7J1MUgKeaw2x3XXE8KgK/pGzaJuzfXbFS7e8Tl2AIc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lvM/lIS1GHm1f8o6XZcSDq+t1x4f+lAVLwzlGG30IR692qD9l5BsyWTIPxMDXkSQ/ NiqbGXl5Qotr668darDBFM2T7z0Ym1e1gPKA02jBJPauUB5rg7Wc+7x7KZTPp8PTTm vm1UIYGannv1hw5gO8pcBvUwUZgutHpPzbmYxTcMroPVNCWiA2V0je7j8uzX+QqB9q Mdy5j1XxJUSrktvGjDovydyhNk6hv8if7b4EittNjchUdg4qHpRFsgBCJ4z4c7rYQ2 VbGKA2579czgc37ILPhhwWPSag9avGhhAy5PpZe0nSbpnhCmaqh1VaGdCQSr2LN3fD p/mJkJM4+D20Q== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [157.52.9.240]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB72B120392; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:35:35 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Arthur Miller's message of "Sat, 17 Oct 2020 08:30:58 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/17 09:13:54 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257939 Archived-At: > I have hard time to imagine a piece of machinery made since 2000 without > something proprietary, but I believe you guys looked up that. Nowadays the main issues for laptops/desktops are: - Wifi cards: it's not hard to find wifi cards that can run on 100% Free Software up to 11n, but I don't know of any for 11ac. - GPUs: AMD's require proprietary firmware, but AFAIK Intel's GPUs don't and I think the Nouveau driver for Nvidia doesn't either. I believe the Free drivers for ARM's GPUs don't use any proprietary firmware either. - BIOS: this is harder to find, but Coreboot/Libreboot/U-boot does support several machines from this century. So, I think we might be better off now than we were before 2000 in this respect. The problem is that this is a shrinking fraction of the overall computer market, dominated by smartphones where the situation is completely different. I'm writing this on my brand new Librem mini, whose proprietary software is limited to some blob that's supposed to neutralize Intel's "ME" horror (oh and I need a proprietary firmware if I want to use the Bluetooth functionality integrated on the wifi card). And my home server is a BananaPi which doesn't use any proprietary code AFAICT. Stefan "of course, that's only true until you start looking at the code running on our SSDs, etc..."