Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Stefan Monnier]

[ Please take out the 20968@... from the Ccs.  ]

> That's not the use case I was talking about.  Looking up questions
> already asked means using a search engine, which will find the answers
> wherever they are, be it on gnu.emacs.help of stack-overflow.

No, the curating (tagging, voting, and editing) makes a significant
difference: you don't need to read N different messages (hopefully
connected via threading) to get the overall picture.

When I search (via, say, DuckDuckGo) for answers to a particular
problem, I generally find that the answers I find in stackoverflow are
generally more directly usable and of higher quality than what I may
find elsewhere.  Sometimes I can get more details and info in the
developer's mailing list archive, but it takes more effort and technical
expertise to find it and digest it.

> I was talking about someone who wants to ask a question never
> asked/answered before.

In that case it mostly depends on who's available to answer
the question.  I think in this respect the average proficiency level on
emacs.stackexchange is very much comparable to that of gnu.emacs.help.

As for redirecting people to *us* (i.e. emacs-devel or debbugs), I find
it neither harder nor easier on stack-foo than on gnu.emacs.help.


        Stefan

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>         bruce.connor.am@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:27:48 -0400
> 
> > That's not the use case I was talking about.  Looking up questions
> > already asked means using a search engine, which will find the answers
> > wherever they are, be it on gnu.emacs.help of stack-overflow.
> 
> No, the curating (tagging, voting, and editing) makes a significant
> difference: you don't need to read N different messages (hopefully
> connected via threading) to get the overall picture.

The answers on Stack-overflow present discussion as well.  And at
least I always read everything there, not just the "best" answer.

> When I search (via, say, DuckDuckGo) for answers to a particular
> problem, I generally find that the answers I find in stackoverflow are
> generally more directly usable and of higher quality than what I may
> find elsewhere.

Then we may wish to make our answers better and more usable as well.
Again, if we want to; it doesn't sound to me people are too
enthusiastic about this.

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Stefan Monnier]

> Then we may wish to make our answers better and more usable as well.

No, we can't: we can only reply with additional info, but we can't
retroactively fix our earlier replies.  That's the difference between
a curated answer site like SX and a mailing-list like GEH.


        Stefan

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Stefan Monnier]

> The answers on Stack-overflow present discussion as well.  And at
> least I always read everything there, not just the "best" answer.

Of course, but it's all in a single web-page, rather than in a tree of
web-pages.  And the info is not just sorted by time but by votes, which
should reflect the relevance/quality of the answer.


        Stefan

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Artur Malabarba]

2015-07-05 19:11 GMT+01:00 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>:
>> The answers on Stack-overflow present discussion as well.  And at
>> least I always read everything there, not just the "best" answer.
>
> Of course, but it's all in a single web-page, rather than in a tree of
> web-pages.  And the info is not just sorted by time but by votes, which
> should reflect the relevance/quality of the answer.

*And* the discussions are usually reserved for comments, which are
much less emphasized than the information itself (the answers).

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Artur Malabarba]

2015-07-05 19:09 GMT+01:00 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>:
>> Then we may wish to make our answers better and more usable as well.
>
> No, we can't: we can only reply with additional info, but we can't
> retroactively fix our earlier replies.  That's the difference between
> a curated answer site like SX and a mailing-list like GEH.

To be fair, that's the difference between mailing-lists and any online
forum whatsoever. Being able to edit answers is a basic requirement
for a Q&A system that wants to present quality answers that rank
highly in search engines. Being able to edit the questions themselves
is another one (since a lot of questions are asked very poorly, which
makes them difficult for other people to find).

Then there are the differences that stack-exchange presents, which are
what make them standout so much over all the other bajillion systems
that let you edit answers. Amongst them are the voting system, the
moderation philosophy, the objective-questions-only policy, and maybe
others I can't think off here.

I don't think help-gnu-emacs should strive to achieve all that. I
think it's a fine place for discussions, and an OK place for Q&A, but
trying to be awesome at Q&A (besides being a tremendous task) would
probably imply being bad at discussions (as is the case with
stack-foo).

Re: bug#20968: 25.0.50; Be able to specify the output directory for `byte-compile-file'

[Artur Malabarba]

>> When I search (via, say, DuckDuckGo) for answers to a particular
>> problem, I generally find that the answers I find in stackoverflow are
>> generally more directly usable and of higher quality than what I may
>> find elsewhere.
>
> Then we may wish to make our answers better and more usable as well.
> Again, if we want to; it doesn't sound to me people are too
> enthusiastic about this.

Yes, I find it a bit hard to be enthusiastic about it. There's nothing
wrong with trying to make help-gnu-emacs better, but as long as it's a
mailing list it's going to have a very hard time being highly ranked
in search engines.

Besids, to have other sites dedicated to Emacs is only a sign of a
healthy (and dedicated) community. If we're worried that that
information might go away without notice, we could archive it
ourselves (that's pretty trivial, even).