From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:11 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <57491476-b7d1-ed1e-9eaf-bc45db607ae8@yandex.ru> <835zd2bf2h.fsf@gnu.org> <1c43f78b-2bc5-8c81-4a57-ba63bb721c85@yandex.ru> <83wo5i9z21.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wm9uy7.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="42246"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 21:50:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYERZ-000Atq-Jz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 21:50:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52556 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYERY-0007wS-KP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:50:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56124) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYEQQ-0006Ti-61 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:16438) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYEQO-0002Gf-NB; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:17 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 8EC08450BF1; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id EF1B94509F8; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:12 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1589226552; bh=pe0cKvMIhq0ctrGbV4x7nzLDUyc3Jm2+1aHRHQu0RSQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=XU7tuJeD6sWw1nuXyG8Qnat1NtCf2bNKJfZIRggetbyKdjDShd6ElKVxTuyDnPk82 RoQ8pjqaMQfltUBx6pU8pMRUUA9LXXZ+DTYl7djfNi6Lbdv4OrNd0fkN4lf0pGrgwh 6GOhPg4JWVEYQnNJKpSTwGR37sjvEPlCNEiejsLGQcz3YqmKljsLfcD4TKRMIp7ZxD /dLhnY3dGaYOfTEp/0rZZUMhdSGrPVaWsaO0UCfmBJ9J2Nxdoul4OsjvoXDKoc2JWA unrBzINYD/7gTN1MXX2mlPxXLwjt9gH1yAIZW5XhrgYp0erBv9Yc4WdKsHt/xNj89f PUV2VGeZM1ObQ== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [216.154.3.202]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 82AE71208FA; Mon, 11 May 2020 15:49:12 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83h7wm9uy7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 11 May 2020 21:40:16 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/11 10:58:52 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249879 Archived-At: >> The way I see it, currently Emacs de-facto recommends to most of its >> users to add MELPA to their `package-archives`. > No, we do nothing of the kind. We don't say the words, but by only distributing a very small subset of the Elisp packages (virtually all of which are available on MELPA), the end result is the same: we merely let *other* people tell our users where the Elisp packages are. > Just because everybody and their dog know what MELPA is and how to > configure Emacs to use it, doesn't mean _we_ told them. Exactly like > we don't "recommend" using MS-Windows, although quite a few of Emacs > users do, witness the discussions on Reddit as one example. MS-Windows? Really? Do you really think some people have installed MS-Windows in order to be able to use Emacs? > Why in the world is that important? Configuring Emacs to work with > MELPA is exceedingly simple, and the way to do that for any random > SITE is in the manual. Why would anyone need that we say the M-word?? Here's how it works for a beginning user of Emacs, in my experience: 1- Install Emacs. 2- Try it out. 3- It doesn't handle their OCaml code, doesn't give them any completions while they type, nothing. 4- They search the web for an answer. 5- The answer tells them to install those things from MELPA. 6- They wonder why on earth it's not enabled by default since it's a matter of a couple lines and you can't do anything without it. 7- Now it's enabled, so they have direct easy access to some packages that recommend proprietary software. In which sense does this better promote Emacs and Free Software than if we enabled a MELPA-Libre by default in `package-archives`? > I still don't understand the motivation. I cannot understand why we > need to argue and quarrel so much on behalf of some site about which > everyone already knows. I don't understand either. The current situation seems so obviously sub-optimal and so easy to fix. Stefan