List packages Status column terminology

List packages Status column terminology

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

When you do M-x list-packages, you get the package listings like

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
zone-matrix        0.0.1        available  Matrix themed Zone mode
zoom-frm           20140101.56  available  Commands to zoom frame 
zossima            20121123.... available  Ruby from Emacs
zotelo             20130428.604 available  Manage Zotero collections 
all                1.0          installed  Edit all lines matching a 
git-commit-mode    20140110.833 installed  Major mode for editing git commit
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?  The fact that I
invoked list-packages itself means that the package is available on
elpa and the only logical statuses are 'install/installed' for
any particular row. i.e as below, preferably in a different face
colour? 

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
zone-matrix        0.0.1        install  Matrix themed Zone mode
zoom-frm           20140101.56  install  Commands to zoom frame 
zossima            20121123.... install  Ruby from Emacs
zotelo             20130428.604 install  Manage Zotero collections 
all                1.0          installed  Edit all lines matching a 
git-commit-mode    20140110.833 installed  Major mode for editing git commit
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

 sivaram
 -- 

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Sivaram Neelakantan <nsivaram.net@gmail.com>
() Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:26:57 +0530

   Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?

Short answer:
Mixing adjectives and verbs is inelegant.  Too, verbs portend entropy.

Long answer:
Both "available" and "installed" are adjectives (of same length --
green-screen bonus!).  Adjectives are suitable for describing things.

The word "install" is a verb, i.e., names an action.  Other actions
might be "uninstall", "remove", "leave-be", "gripe", "recommend",
"ponder", "examine", "reinstall", etc.  To my eyes, the "etc" is most
important; it implies a need for (detailed) documentation, and the
feeping creature of hyperlinks.

Whimsical answer:
do be do be do,
be do be do be!
in my heart i knew
that two requires three?

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Bozhidar Batsov]

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Probably "not installed" would be a less confusing status.


On 17 January 2014 10:53, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> wrote:

> () Sivaram Neelakantan <nsivaram.net@gmail.com>
> () Fri, 17 Jan 2014 10:26:57 +0530
>
>    Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?
>
> Short answer:
> Mixing adjectives and verbs is inelegant.  Too, verbs portend entropy.
>
> Long answer:
> Both "available" and "installed" are adjectives (of same length --
> green-screen bonus!).  Adjectives are suitable for describing things.
>
> The word "install" is a verb, i.e., names an action.  Other actions
> might be "uninstall", "remove", "leave-be", "gripe", "recommend",
> "ponder", "examine", "reinstall", etc.  To my eyes, the "etc" is most
> important; it implies a need for (detailed) documentation, and the
> feeping creature of hyperlinks.
>
> Whimsical answer:
> do be do be do,
> be do be do be!
> in my heart i knew
> that two requires three?
>
> --
> Thien-Thi Nguyen
>    GPG key: 4C807502
>    (if you're human and you know it)
>       read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
>                                (not (via 'mailing-list)))
>                      => nil
>

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Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Stefan Monnier]

> Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?

Because the top of the columns say that it's about the "Status", and
saying that the "Status" of that package is "install" would make
no sense.

"available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
this column.

Any other idea?


        Stefan

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?
>
> Because the top of the columns say that it's about the "Status", and
> saying that the "Status" of that package is "install" would make
> no sense.
>
> "available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
> might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
> this column.
>
> Any other idea?

installable?  uninstalled?  I think the latter is the term the Debian
package manager uses.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

What about using visual cues for denoting similar to what modern package managers (Like synaptic http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Synaptic_screenshot.pang) use?

They necessarily don't have to be images or GUI elements, a simple 'X' could do too. (However such a cue before the package name would be better).
This could eliminate the need for an extra column, making things more compact.
- --
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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RE: List packages Status column terminology

[Drew Adams]

> > Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?
> 
> Because the top of the columns say that it's about the "Status", and
> saying that the "Status" of that package is "install" would make
> no sense.
> 
> "available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
> might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
> this column. Any other idea?

Are these field values _links_ that install and uninstall?
If so, "install" and "uninstall" (and "action" instead of "status").
If not, why not?

(Disclaimer: Have not been following this thread.)

RE: List packages Status column terminology

[Vibhav Pant]

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Hash: SHA256

>Are these field values _links_ that install and uninstall?
No. They are used to indicate whether a package is installed or not.
>If so, "install" and "uninstall" (and "action" instead of "status").
>If not, why not?
Because packages can be individually installed by clicking on their links?

- --
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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RE: List packages Status column terminology

[Drew Adams]

> >Are these field values _links_ that install and uninstall?
>
> No. They are used to indicate whether a package is installed or not.

You cannot uninstall if not installed.  And even if the word "install"
can be interpreted as either update or install from scratch, there
would be no such ambiguity here, since the link "install" would appear
only if the package were not yet installed.

"install" and "uninstall" would let you know unambiguously whether
the package is installed.  Just as clear as "uninstalled" and
"installed", and more useful.

> >If so, "install" and "uninstall" (and "action" instead of "status").
> >If not, why not?
>
> Because packages can be individually installed by clicking on their
> links?

That is not a reason not to provide clear install/uninstall links.
The package-name link is less clear than "install" (even if it might
have a tooltip that clarifies what it does).

Let the link on the package name update, or install if not installed.
Remove that link if the package is already installed.

"install" and "uninstall" links tell you both the status and what
you can do, and they let you do it.


[PS. Why the giant, incomprehensible .sig?  Excusing the brevity
of what you type is not a problem.  What about the non-brevity of
all that PGP .sig crap?]

> - --
> Vibhav Pant
> vibhavp@gmail.com
> 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

On Fri, Jan 17 2014,Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> Why use the word 'available' instead of 'install'?
>
> Because the top of the columns say that it's about the "Status", and
> saying that the "Status" of that package is "install" would make
> no sense.
>
> "available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
> might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
> this column.
>
> Any other idea?

Well, it probably would make sense to change the 'Status' to 'Action' as
that would be a better reflection of 'list-packages' functionality.



 sivaram
 -- 

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Stefan Monnier]

> Well, it probably would make sense to change the 'Status' to 'Action' as
> that would be a better reflection of 'list-packages' functionality.

What "Action" do you propose for "built-in"?  And "obsolete"?


        Stefan

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Bozhidar Batsov]

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Stefan is right - "status" makes more sense overall.


On 17 January 2014 23:28, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:

> > Well, it probably would make sense to change the 'Status' to 'Action' as
> > that would be a better reflection of 'list-packages' functionality.
>
> What "Action" do you propose for "built-in"?  And "obsolete"?
>
>
>         Stefan
>
>

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Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

On Sat, Jan 18 2014,Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> Well, it probably would make sense to change the 'Status' to 'Action' as
>> that would be a better reflection of 'list-packages' functionality.
>
> What "Action" do you propose for "built-in"?  And "obsolete"?
>

Why, "installed" and not show obsolete packages.  All built-ins are
installed per definition?  And obsolete packages, that stumps me.

 sivaram
 -- 

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Well, it probably would make sense to change the 'Status' to 'Action' as
>>> that would be a better reflection of 'list-packages' functionality.
>> What "Action" do you propose for "built-in"?  And "obsolete"?
> Why, "installed" and not show obsolete packages.

"installed" doesn't sound much like an action.

> And obsolete packages, that stumps me.

You lack imagination.  "obsolete" means that the version number is not
the highest.  But maybe the user wants that "older" package.


        Stefan

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    "available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
    might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
    this column.

How about "absent"?  Or "not inst"?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

On Sat, Jan 18 2014,Richard Stallman wrote:


[snipped 8 lines]

> How about "absent"?  Or "not inst"?

The first makes it sound as if the package was registered in elpa but
is not available now.


 sivaram
 -- 

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Trent W. Buck]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> "available" is not a great choice, tho.  The suggested "not installed"
> might be a bit better, but it's longer and I'd rather try and shorten
> this column.
>
> Any other idea?

For comparison, aptitude uses these terms:

  Upgradable Packages (71)
    A newer version of these packages is available.

  New Packages (82)
    These packages have been added to Debian since the last time you
    cleared the list of "new" packages (choose "Forget new packages"
    from the Actions menu to empty this list).

  Installed Packages (746)
    These packages are currently installed on your computer.

  Not Installed Packages (41034)
    These packages are not installed on your computer.

  Obsolete and Locally Created Packages (6)
    These packages are currently installed on your computer, but they
    are not available from any apt source.  They may be obsolete and
    removed from the archive, or you may have built a private version of
    them yourself.

  Virtual Packages (5748)
    These packages do not exist; they are names other packages use to
    require or provide some functionality.

They appear horizontally as grouping elements in a tree view,
so they use up one line each instead of umpteen columns.

Each package also has one to four single-letter codes in a generic
"status" column, "i" for installed, "A" for automatically installed by
something else, "p" for not installed, "v" for virtual, etc.  They
mostly correspond to the dpkg codes,

    Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
    | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
    |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
    ||/   Name    Vers  Description
    xyz   hello   1.0   The classic greeting, and a good example

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Stefan Monnier]

> For comparison, aptitude uses these terms:
[...]
> They appear horizontally as grouping elements in a tree view,
> so they use up one line each instead of umpteen columns.

That's a good presentation, since it saves a column (in exchange for
a few extra lines).  The downsides:
- incompatible with "sort by name", where we want to see the various
  versions (built-in, obsolete, and new ones) together.
- tabulated-list-mode doesn't support this, so it requires more coding
  work.


        Stefan

Re: List packages Status column terminology

[Trent W. Buck]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> For comparison, aptitude uses these terms:
> [...]
>> They appear horizontally as grouping elements in a tree view,
>> so they use up one line each instead of umpteen columns.
>
> That's a good presentation, since it saves a column (in exchange for
> a few extra lines).  The downsides:
> - incompatible with "sort by name", where we want to see the various
>   versions (built-in, obsolete, and new ones) together.

aptitude deals with that by letting you turn off the grouping (you still
see the code-letters status column).  Although, normally I would be
doing sorting with "aptitude search | sort | ..." which doesn't group by
default.

Should probably look at other distro package managers, too; ICBF.