* tree-sitter and emacs-devel @ 2020-04-02 16:01 Stefan Monnier 2020-04-02 16:12 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-02 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of the last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a contributor to tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this squabbling over how tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have not been involved in either of those and don't have any practical experience of how it performs or why it's designed that way) would make me run away screaming and promising myself never to come back to that mad house. The worst part for me is to realize that I was mostly on the side of the backseat drivers :-( Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 16:01 tree-sitter and emacs-devel Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-02 16:12 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-03 14:57 ` Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn 2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Jorge Javier Araya Navarro @ 2020-04-02 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1278 bytes --] I'll stick with emacs-devel anyway and keep contributing to emacs-tree-sitter too jaja. it is demoralizing indeed, but it is more not bringing Emacs to the XXI century. We can do incremental changes after testing how this thing works —not need to discuss what is and what is not a premature optimization—, Emacs maintainers can help by making sure major GNU/Linux distributions ship Emacs with dynamic module feature turned on so the work done on this side can be rapidly adopted by the community; what's done wrong can be revisited later. El jue., 2 de abril de 2020 10:02, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> escribió: > FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of the > last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a contributor to > tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this squabbling over how > tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have not been involved in > either of those and don't have any practical experience of how it > performs or why it's designed that way) would make me run away screaming > and promising myself never to come back to that mad house. > > The worst part for me is to realize that I was mostly on the side of the > backseat drivers :-( > > > Stefan > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1642 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 16:01 tree-sitter and emacs-devel Stefan Monnier 2020-04-02 16:12 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro @ 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-02 17:07 ` andres.ramirez 2020-04-03 13:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-03 14:57 ` Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn 2 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-02 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 12:01:38 -0400 > > FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of the > last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a contributor to > tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this squabbling over how > tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have not been involved in > either of those and don't have any practical experience of how it > performs or why it's designed that way) would make me run away screaming > and promising myself never to come back to that mad house. I actually think that this discussion brought up several important issues and topics (and I don't mean my own messages) that should be considered if such technology is to become part of Emacs (and I very much hope it will). Yes, there's quite a bit of noise, as in any discussion, but that's inevitable. The alternative is to invent your own wheel each time, and make all the same mistakes. I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 years ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was just a pipe dream. Many of the ideas expressed there I tossed, but some are now part of our implementation, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to hear them. I'm also glad that Gerd Moellmann was there to provide his perspective on what would and what wouldn't be viable, I would have never arrived at the current design without his guidance, not without making several grave mistakes anyway. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-02 17:07 ` andres.ramirez 2020-04-03 5:07 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 2020-04-03 13:43 ` Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: andres.ramirez @ 2020-04-02 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel >>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> Date: Thu, 02 Apr >> 2020 12:01:38 -0400 >> >> FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of >> the last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a >> contributor to tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this >> squabbling over how tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have >> not been involved in either of those and don't have any practical >> experience of how it performs or why it's designed that way) would >> make me run away screaming and promising myself never to come back >> to that mad house. Eli> I actually think that this discussion brought up several Eli> important issues and topics (and I don't mean my own messages) Eli> that should be considered if such technology is to become part of Eli> Emacs (and I very much hope it will). Yes, there's quite a bit Eli> of noise, as in any discussion, but that's inevitable. The Eli> alternative is to invent your own wheel each time, and make all Eli> the same mistakes. Eli> I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 Eli> years ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was Eli> just a pipe dream. Many of the ideas expressed there I tossed, Eli> but some are now part of our implementation, and I'm glad I had Eli> the opportunity to hear them. I'm also glad that Gerd Moellmann Eli> was there to provide his perspective on what would and what Eli> wouldn't be viable, I would have never arrived at the current Eli> design without his guidance, not without making several grave Eli> mistakes anyway. +1 This discussion have bring me food for thought. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 17:07 ` andres.ramirez @ 2020-04-03 5:07 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Jorge Javier Araya Navarro @ 2020-04-03 5:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: andres.ramirez; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2354 bytes --] It can and has for some, but at some point if the people discussing focus too much around what is and is not an early optimization a wrong message can be communicated, as it was pointed out in another thread that maintainers won't help unless volunteers from third-party projects follow to a T their demands. P.S.: didn't notice this thread was titled paraphrasing the one I started (tree-sitter and Emacs), I find funny I didn't notice until now. El jue., 2 de abr. de 2020 a la(s) 11:08, andres.ramirez ( rrandresf@gmail.com) escribió: > >>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > >> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> Date: Thu, 02 Apr > >> 2020 12:01:38 -0400 > >> > >> FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of > >> the last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a > >> contributor to tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this > >> squabbling over how tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have > >> not been involved in either of those and don't have any practical > >> experience of how it performs or why it's designed that way) would > >> make me run away screaming and promising myself never to come back > >> to that mad house. > > Eli> I actually think that this discussion brought up several > Eli> important issues and topics (and I don't mean my own messages) > Eli> that should be considered if such technology is to become part of > Eli> Emacs (and I very much hope it will). Yes, there's quite a bit > Eli> of noise, as in any discussion, but that's inevitable. The > Eli> alternative is to invent your own wheel each time, and make all > Eli> the same mistakes. > > Eli> I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 > Eli> years ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was > Eli> just a pipe dream. Many of the ideas expressed there I tossed, > Eli> but some are now part of our implementation, and I'm glad I had > Eli> the opportunity to hear them. I'm also glad that Gerd Moellmann > Eli> was there to provide his perspective on what would and what > Eli> wouldn't be viable, I would have never arrived at the current > Eli> design without his guidance, not without making several grave > Eli> mistakes anyway. > > +1 > > This discussion have bring me food for thought. > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3214 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-02 17:07 ` andres.ramirez @ 2020-04-03 13:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-03 14:12 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-03 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel > I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 years > ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was just a pipe > dream. That was a completely different situation. tree-sitter is very far from a pipe dream (the initial Git commit dates back to 2013). Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-03 13:43 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-03 14:12 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-03 15:13 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-03 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 09:43:05 -0400 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 years > > ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was just a pipe > > dream. > > That was a completely different situation. tree-sitter is very far from > a pipe dream (the initial Git commit dates back to 2013). You may not remember it, but at the time I mentioned we had a working prototype of bidi Emacs. It was even demonstrated at a conference in Japan in the year 2000. So the situation is not really that different. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-03 14:12 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-03 15:13 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-04 8:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-03 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel >> > I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 years >> > ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was just a pipe dream. >> That was a completely different situation. tree-sitter is very far from >> a pipe dream (the initial Git commit dates back to 2013). > You may not remember it, but at the time I mentioned we had a working > prototype of bidi Emacs. It was even demonstrated at a conference in > Japan in the year 2000. So the situation is not really that > different. But AFAIK noone here is planning to implement a new parser to *replace* tree-sitter, so again, this is not a comparable situation at all. In the LSP world, `tree-sitter` would be like an LSP server, and `emacs-tree-sitter` would be like eglot.el. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-03 15:13 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-04 8:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-04 18:00 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-04 8:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2020 11:13:31 -0400 > > >> > I remember a similar situation on the emacs-bidi mailing list 15 years > >> > ago when the bidirectional editing support for Emacs was just a pipe dream. > >> That was a completely different situation. tree-sitter is very far from > >> a pipe dream (the initial Git commit dates back to 2013). > > You may not remember it, but at the time I mentioned we had a working > > prototype of bidi Emacs. It was even demonstrated at a conference in > > Japan in the year 2000. So the situation is not really that > > different. > > But AFAIK noone here is planning to implement a new parser to *replace* > tree-sitter No one was planning to replace the bidi prototype back then, either. (And I don't really see how this aspect could be relevant to this part of the discussion.) In general, I find it puzzling that you apparently say we shouldn't try providing guidance to developers who are working on important features. Without us passing our knowledge and experience, how would they learn from past mistakes? how will they avoid making some of those mistakes time and again? Our experience includes things we tried and failed, it includes techniques we found to be expensive or dangerous or non-scalable. None of that is written anywhere except in our memory, so the only way to pass that knowledge is to speak up regarding which methods and algorithms should be preferred to others. How can we help except by guidance based on that experience? Are we supposed to do the work ourselves, so that no one could say we are acting as "backseat drivers"? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-04 8:15 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-04 18:00 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2020-04-04 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel > In general, I find it puzzling that you apparently say we shouldn't > try providing guidance to developers who are working on important > features. The discussion was supposedly about `emacs-tree-sitter` with people working on `emacs-tree-sitter`, yet a lot of it ended up being about the design of `tree-sitter` instead. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-02 16:01 tree-sitter and emacs-devel Stefan Monnier 2020-04-02 16:12 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2020-04-03 14:57 ` Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn 2020-04-04 1:27 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn @ 2020-04-03 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:02 PM Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: > > FWIW, re-reading over the discussions around emacs-tree-sitter of the > last few days, I must say I'm not proud: if I were a contributor to > tree-sitter and/or emacs-tree-sitter, all this squabbling over how > tree-sitter "should" work (from people who have not been involved in > either of those and don't have any practical experience of how it > performs or why it's designed that way) would make me run away screaming > and promising myself never to come back to that mad house. > For me personally, the discussions were ok, if a bit noisy. But yes, the overall atmosphere/style can feel discouraging to newcomers. -- Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn Software Engineer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: tree-sitter and emacs-devel 2020-04-03 14:57 ` Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn @ 2020-04-04 1:27 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2020-04-04 1:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tuấn-Anh Nguyá» n; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > For me personally, the discussions were ok, if a bit noisy. But yes, the > overall atmosphere/style can feel discouraging to newcomers. Can you point to specific instances where it would have been useful for people to speak differently? Have you ead https://gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html? Do you see any instances where their advice might have helped make the discussion easier and more appealing to join? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-04-04 18:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-04-02 16:01 tree-sitter and emacs-devel Stefan Monnier 2020-04-02 16:12 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 2020-04-02 16:24 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-02 17:07 ` andres.ramirez 2020-04-03 5:07 ` Jorge Javier Araya Navarro 2020-04-03 13:43 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-03 14:12 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-03 15:13 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-04 8:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 2020-04-04 18:00 ` Stefan Monnier 2020-04-03 14:57 ` Tuấn-Anh Nguyễn 2020-04-04 1:27 ` Richard Stallman
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