From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: gtk scroll bar deficiency Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: References: <466D8F06.6010906@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1181589928 5051 80.91.229.12 (11 Jun 2007 19:25:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:25:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Sam Steingold Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 11 21:25:24 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HxpVs-0002WN-TS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:25:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HxpVs-0000Zv-B4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HxpVp-0000Zq-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:13 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HxpVn-0000Ze-Nd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:11 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HxpVn-0000Zb-HK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mercure.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.24.67]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HxpVl-0002TZ-G6; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:10 -0400 Original-Received: from hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.50]) by mercure.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886B72CF274; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (faina.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.26.177]) by hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC063FE1; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2A8706C808; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:25:03 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <466D8F06.6010906@gnu.org> (Sam Steingold's message of "Mon\, 11 Jun 2007 14\:05\:58 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-DIRO-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DIRO-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-DIRO-MailScanner-SpamCheck: n'est pas un polluriel, SpamAssassin (score=-2.82, requis 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -2.82) X-DIRO-MailScanner-From: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:72639 Archived-At: > I just built emacs with gtk for the first time and I was struck by the > change in the scroll bar behavior (specifically, the location of the > sliding "scroll thing" - what is its official name anyway?). Some toolkits call it the "thumb". > before: when the whole buffer is visible, the scroll thing in the bar > occupies the whole scroll bar (clearly indicating that everything is > visible); when the bottom of the buffer is visible, the scroll thing is > at the bottom of the scroll bar. this is also the behavior of gedit, > firefox, openoffice, gnumeric et al, and I like it. > now: when the whole buffer is visible (more generally, when the bottom > is visible), the scroll thing does not reach the bottom of the scroll > bar - you can scroll down and, as the bottom of the buffer scrolls up, > the scroll thing reaches the bottom of scroll bar (while decreasing in > its size). this is the behavior of vim, and I hate it. > is this change intentional? > it looks like a bug to me... I'm pretty sure it's intentional. It's not perfect, but the perfect behavior (which you get with the non-toolkit build) tends to be difficult to get with current toolkits because toolkit writers are boneheaded: they prevent applications from doing some very useful things in order to force them into a predefined mould which of course doesn't fit all. Stefan PS: Basically, they want to enforce limitations of the physical metaphor, rather than let people benefit from the fact that it's only a metaphor and thus doesn't need to suffer from the same limits. Soon they'll ask for mouses with feedback so the user has to make a physical effort proportional to the size of the text/window when sliding the thumb. Next thing you know, the scrollbars will wear out and will need regular maintenance so they don't get wedged.