22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Reiner Steib]

Hi,

several TUTORIAL* files mention a node "Spontaneous Entry to
Incremental Search" which doesn't exist:

,----[ TUTORIAL ]
| Then see the section "Spontaneous Entry to Incremental Search" in
| the Emacs manual for advice on dealing with this "feature".
`----

,----[ TUTORIAL.de ]
| [...] und lesen Sie dann den Abschnitt `Spontaneous Entry to
| Incremental Search' im Emacs-Handbuch, was man am besten tun kann.
`----

Searching for "spontan" in man/*.texi only found `faq.texi', but
nothing in the Emacs manual.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Andreas Schwab]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> Searching for "spontan" in man/*.texi only found `faq.texi', but
> nothing in the Emacs manual.

That node has been removed from the manual about 2 years ago.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Reiner Steib]

On Mon, Mar 10 2008, Andreas Schwab wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> Searching for "spontan" in man/*.texi only found `faq.texi', but
>> nothing in the Emacs manual.
>
> That node has been removed from the manual about 2 years ago.

Maybe we should add a comment in the *.texi files that are referenced
in the tutorial?  Something like this...

@c This node is referenced in the tutorial.  When renaming or deleting
@c it, the tutorial needs to be adjusted.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Richard Stallman]

    Maybe we should add a comment in the *.texi files that are referenced
    in the tutorial?  Something like this...

    @c This node is referenced in the tutorial.  When renaming or deleting
    @c it, the tutorial needs to be adjusted.

It sounds like a good idea.

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Mar 12 2008, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     @c This node is referenced in the tutorial.  When renaming or deleting
>     @c it, the tutorial needs to be adjusted.
>
> It sounds like a good idea.

Done (in Emacs 22).

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Chong Yidong]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> several TUTORIAL* files mention a node "Spontaneous Entry to
> Incremental Search" which doesn't exist:
>
> ,----[ TUTORIAL ]
> | Then see the section "Spontaneous Entry to Incremental Search" in
> | the Emacs manual for advice on dealing with this "feature".
> `----

I doubt anyone nowadays will encounter flow control problems, in which
case this tutorial paragraph can be deleted.  Any objections?

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Mar 11 2008, Chong Yidong wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> ,----[ TUTORIAL ]
>> | Then see the section "Spontaneous Entry to Incremental Search" in
>> | the Emacs manual for advice on dealing with this "feature".
>> `----
>
> I doubt anyone nowadays will encounter flow control problems,

Does this qualify as flow control problem?

,----[ http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/51970/focus=52180 ]
| From: Andreas Goesele
| Subject: german umlauts vs. meta key
| Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help
| Date: 2008-02-29
|
| [...]
| Another explanation of the problem I found is that under the console
| C-s disables input and C-q reenables it - which indeed is the case,
| but doesn't make much sense under a xterminal, does it?
`----

> in which case this tutorial paragraph can be deleted.  Any
> objections?

(I don't object.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Richard Stallman]

    | Another explanation of the problem I found is that under the console
    | C-s disables input and C-q reenables it - which indeed is the case,
    | but doesn't make much sense under a xterminal, does it?

    Does this qualify as flow control problem?

I don't think so.  It looks like he has encountered the fact that C-s
and C-q _typed by the user_ operate as commands that turn output off
and on.  The solution is simply to turn off their effect (and I think
Emacs does that in sysdep.c, so why isn't it working?).

Flow control means the terminal generates those input characters to
regulate input.  To avoid that problem, Emacs has to send more padding.
But that is what I think no modern terminal emulator will do.

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Andreas Schwab]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     | Another explanation of the problem I found is that under the console
>     | C-s disables input and C-q reenables it - which indeed is the case,
>     | but doesn't make much sense under a xterminal, does it?
>
>     Does this qualify as flow control problem?
>
> I don't think so.  It looks like he has encountered the fact that C-s
> and C-q _typed by the user_ operate as commands that turn output off
> and on.

This is the same XON/XOFF (software) flow control, whether typed by the
user or generated by a terminal is not relevant.

> The solution is simply to turn off their effect (and I think
> Emacs does that in sysdep.c, so why isn't it working?).

The OP in the cited thread had that explicitly enabled due to a
misunderstanding.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Richard Stallman]

    > I don't think so.  It looks like he has encountered the fact that C-s
    > and C-q _typed by the user_ operate as commands that turn output off
    > and on.

    This is the same XON/XOFF (software) flow control, whether typed by the
    user or generated by a terminal is not relevant.

That is absolutely relevant.  If they were generated by the user, the
solution is "turn off that terminal feature".  If they were generated
by the terminal for flow control purposes, more change is needed (increased padding so there will be no flow control).

    > The solution is simply to turn off their effect (and I think
    > Emacs does that in sysdep.c, so why isn't it working?).

    The OP in the cited thread had that explicitly enabled due to a
    misunderstanding.

In that case, we know the solution.

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Andreas Schwab]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > I don't think so.  It looks like he has encountered the fact that C-s
>     > and C-q _typed by the user_ operate as commands that turn output off
>     > and on.
>
>     This is the same XON/XOFF (software) flow control, whether typed by the
>     user or generated by a terminal is not relevant.
>
> That is absolutely relevant.

My point was the the two cases are not distinguishable from inside
Emacs.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Richard Stallman]

    My point was the the two cases are not distinguishable from inside
    Emacs.

Ok, but what is needed to fix the problem does differ.

Re: 22.1.92; Tutorial: references to non-existing info nodes

[Chong Yidong]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>
>> several TUTORIAL* files mention a node "Spontaneous Entry to
>> Incremental Search" which doesn't exist:
>>
>> ,----[ TUTORIAL ]
>> | Then see the section "Spontaneous Entry to Incremental Search" in
>> | the Emacs manual for advice on dealing with this "feature".
>> `----
>
> I doubt anyone nowadays will encounter flow control problems, in which
> case this tutorial paragraph can be deleted.

I've deleted the discussion of flow control in the tutorials.

Also, for the record, the C-s and flow control issue is discussed in
the Emacs FAQ under the title:

  Why does Emacs spontaneously start displaying `I-search:' and beeping?