From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Simon Josefsson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Cyrillic vs UTF-8 Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:03:03 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <1858-Fri25Apr2003194023+0300-eliz@elta.co.il> <200304260811.RAA08227@etlken.m17n.org> <200305010827.RAA15024@etlken.m17n.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1052071418 24430 80.91.224.249 (4 May 2003 18:03:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:03:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Kenichi Handa Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Sun May 04 20:03:35 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19CNpn-0006Lj-00 for ; Sun, 04 May 2003 20:03:35 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19CNsQ-0006bg-00 for ; Sun, 04 May 2003 20:06:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 19CNqP-0003Iz-08 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 14:04:14 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 19CNq5-0003IF-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 14:03:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 19CNq3-0003Hy-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 May 2003 14:03:52 -0400 Original-Received: from 178.230.13.217.in-addr.dgcsystems.net ([217.13.230.178] helo=yxa.extundo.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 19CNpQ-00036Y-00; Sun, 04 May 2003 14:03:12 -0400 Original-Received: from latte.josefsson.org (yxa.extundo.com [217.13.230.178]) by yxa.extundo.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h44I33bT028089; Sun, 4 May 2003 20:03:04 +0200 Original-To: Dave Love Mail-Copies-To: nobody X-Payment: hashcash 1.2 0:030504:d.love@dl.ac.uk:ffede8aa375f34c0 X-Hashcash: 0:030504:d.love@dl.ac.uk:ffede8aa375f34c0 X-Payment: hashcash 1.2 0:030504:handa@m17n.org:33e4d530dc3d53cb X-Hashcash: 0:030504:handa@m17n.org:33e4d530dc3d53cb X-Payment: hashcash 1.2 0:030504:emacs-devel@gnu.org:8324e2a45001f029 X-Hashcash: 0:030504:emacs-devel@gnu.org:8324e2a45001f029 X-Payment: hashcash 1.2 0:030504:rms@gnu.org:e685321fe609d5eb X-Hashcash: 0:030504:rms@gnu.org:e685321fe609d5eb X-Payment: hashcash 1.2 0:030504:eliz@elta.co.il:0798f91175a6428d X-Hashcash: 0:030504:eliz@elta.co.il:0798f91175a6428d In-Reply-To: (Dave Love's message of "04 May 2003 18:13:58 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Original-cc: rms@gnu.org Original-cc: eliz@elta.co.il Original-cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:13680 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:13680 Dave Love writes: > Simon Josefsson writes: > >> Another problem was that Emacs, >> when asked to load the file as UTF-8, picked a Unicode font that >> didn't include this glyphs. > > I assume that's the general xfree86 4 lossage I mentioned in PROBLEMS. Yes. > I can't remember how the font will get chosen by default, but > there's code in cyrillic.el that should allow mule-unicode-0100-24ff > characters to be displayed with an 8859-5 or KOI font. You can also > change into which Emacs characters utf-8 decodes. The remaining problem is that this should happen automatically, without user configuration. >> To workaround the problem, users need to >> define a fontset, and use it. > > Yes (or purge the unhelpful fonts). Purging incomplete fonts is not a realistic option, like (I think it was) Stephen said, it does not make sense for a font designer for, e.g., cyrillic to include non-cyrillic fonts just because he (rightly) decided to use the iso-10646 encoding. >> My other Cyrillic thread was that (double-width) cyrillic > > I assume that means the Cyrillic parts of the CJK charsets. Yes. >> isn't possible to save as UTF-8 at all. > > It's possible if you amend the tables defined in ucs-tables.el or > utf-8.el -- wherever it is now. I can't remember whether there are > potential problems with that, but I at least thought it wasn't > worthwhile. If you want to experiment, Mule-UCS has tables with the > non-CJK characters labelled for JISX &c. I don't normally use cyrillic, so I don't care much. But I do believe that when a user like me (who don't normally use cyrillic) happen to cut'n'paste a cyrillic string from another application, it should Simply Work without requiring the user to become familiar with cyrillic usage in emacs. > [This has got strange recipients because the original mail had > `Mail-Copies-To: nobody'. As far as I know, that's a non-standard > header for news only, so perhaps there's a Gnus bug there.] The recipient list looked fine; I read the replies to my messages on the list, no need to CC me. But it is a non-standard header, so I don't expect everyone to support it.