gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Glenn Morris]

Does anyone have a pointer to an upstream gtk bug report for the
infamous gtk scroll bar issue? Thanks.

(I want to mark http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=1036
as forwarded.)

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Jan Djärv]

Hello.

There never was any upstream bug report for this.  The discussion (starting 
here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-03/msg00555.html) 
made it clear that a bug report would not lead to anything.

	Jan D.


Glenn Morris skrev 2011-07-09 20.45:
>
> Does anyone have a pointer to an upstream gtk bug report for the
> infamous gtk scroll bar issue? Thanks.
>
> (I want to mark http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=1036
> as forwarded.)

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Andy Wingo]

On Sun 10 Jul 2011 19:12, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:

> There never was any upstream bug report for this.  The discussion
> (starting here:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-03/msg00555.html)
> made it clear that a bug report would not lead to anything.

That was 8 years ago at this point.  Might be worth another try.  If you
file a bug, and they still don't want to support this behavior, they
could suggest a usable workaround.

Just sayin'.

Andy
-- 
http://wingolog.org/

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Jan Djärv]

Hello.

Andy Wingo skrev 2011-07-11 09.59:
> On Sun 10 Jul 2011 19:12, Jan Djärv<jan.h.d@swipnet.se>  writes:
>
>> There never was any upstream bug report for this.  The discussion
>> (starting here:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-03/msg00555.html)
>> made it clear that a bug report would not lead to anything.
>
> That was 8 years ago at this point.  Might be worth another try.  If you
> file a bug, and they still don't want to support this behavior, they
> could suggest a usable workaround.
>

I got the impression that scrollbars is even further away from the Emacs model 
nowdays.  The minimum size requirement for the scroll bar thumb is more common 
with new fancy themes.  The Emacs model is simply incompatible.

	Jan D.

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Richard Riley]

Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:

> Hello.
>
> Andy Wingo skrev 2011-07-11 09.59:
>> On Sun 10 Jul 2011 19:12, Jan Djärv<jan.h.d@swipnet.se>  writes:
>>
>>> There never was any upstream bug report for this.  The discussion
>>> (starting here:
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-03/msg00555.html)
>>> made it clear that a bug report would not lead to anything.
>>
>> That was 8 years ago at this point.  Might be worth another try.  If you
>> file a bug, and they still don't want to support this behavior, they
>> could suggest a usable workaround.
>>
>
> I got the impression that scrollbars is even further away from the Emacs model
> nowdays.  The minimum size requirement for the scroll bar thumb is more common
> with new fancy themes.  The Emacs model is simply incompatible.

How is it incompatible? There were many positive suggestions in that old
thread.

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Miles Bader]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>> I got the impression that scrollbars is even further away from the
>> Emacs model nowdays.  The minimum size requirement for the scroll
>> bar thumb is more common with new fancy themes.  The Emacs model is
>> simply incompatible.
>
> How is it incompatible? There were many positive suggestions in that
> old thread.

Certainly the impression I got from the old discussions was that it
wasn't so much that it was _difficult_ to support the Emacs model, but
rather that they wanted to _prevent_ apps from using such a model
because they thought it was bad (for the user?).

-Miles

-- 
Friendless, adj. Having no favors to bestow. Destitute of fortune. Addicted to
utterance of truth and common sense.

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Jan Djärv]

Miles Bader skrev 2011-07-12 11.04:
> Richard Riley<rileyrg@googlemail.com>  writes:
>>> I got the impression that scrollbars is even further away from the
>>> Emacs model nowdays.  The minimum size requirement for the scroll
>>> bar thumb is more common with new fancy themes.  The Emacs model is
>>> simply incompatible.
>>
>> How is it incompatible? There were many positive suggestions in that
>> old thread.
>
> Certainly the impression I got from the old discussions was that it
> wasn't so much that it was _difficult_ to support the Emacs model, but
> rather that they wanted to _prevent_ apps from using such a model
> because they thought it was bad (for the user?).

I think they want applications to behave the same, and the Emacs model is late 
to the game (for Gtk+).  So there is little reason to switch.

	Jan D.

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Tim Cross]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:54 AM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>
> Miles Bader skrev 2011-07-12 11.04:
>>
>> Richard Riley<rileyrg@googlemail.com>  writes:
>>>>
>>>> I got the impression that scrollbars is even further away from the
>>>> Emacs model nowdays.  The minimum size requirement for the scroll
>>>> bar thumb is more common with new fancy themes.  The Emacs model is
>>>> simply incompatible.
>>>
>>> How is it incompatible? There were many positive suggestions in that
>>> old thread.
>>
>> Certainly the impression I got from the old discussions was that it
>> wasn't so much that it was _difficult_ to support the Emacs model, but
>> rather that they wanted to _prevent_ apps from using such a model
>> because they thought it was bad (for the user?).
>
> I think they want applications to behave the same, and the Emacs model is
> late to the game (for Gtk+).  So there is little reason to switch.
>
>        Jan D.
>
>
>

My interaction with GTK+ developers supports this as well. There
appears to be a fairly strong GUI design philosophy underlying GTK+
which tries to enforce what they believe are good UI design principals
and ensure consistency across apps which use the toolkit. I think this
is a good thing, but it does mean we are likely to run up against UI
'reatures' which traditionally, emacs has supported that will not be
possible under this toolkit. Whether the inability to support a
feature udner a toolkit represents a bug from the emacs perspective is
uncertain (I don't think it is a bug), but I certainly would not
classify it as a bug from the GTK+ perspective - possibly a feature
request or enhancement request, but not a bug.

Tim

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[David Kastrup]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:54 AM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>
>> I think they want applications to behave the same, and the Emacs model is
>> late to the game (for Gtk+).  So there is little reason to switch.
>
> My interaction with GTK+ developers supports this as well. There
> appears to be a fairly strong GUI design philosophy underlying GTK+
> which tries to enforce what they believe are good UI design principals
> and ensure consistency across apps which use the toolkit.

Consistency may be nice, but not everything is a viewer.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[Tim Cross]

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:46 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:54 AM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think they want applications to behave the same, and the Emacs model is
>>> late to the game (for Gtk+).  So there is little reason to switch.
>>
>> My interaction with GTK+ developers supports this as well. There
>> appears to be a fairly strong GUI design philosophy underlying GTK+
>> which tries to enforce what they believe are good UI design principals
>> and ensure consistency across apps which use the toolkit.
>
> Consistency may be nice, but not everything is a viewer.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>

I don't necessarily agree with their views on good UI design or even
their view of consistency. While emacs developers my try to convince
them why different behaviour for a scroll bar would benefit some apps,
at the end of the day, it is up to the GTK+ devs to decide if what we
are arguing represents a bug, a feature request or an enhancement or
just reject it because it does not fit in with their plans/strategy.
The opinions of emacs developers are largely irrelevant - we can try
to argue the case and we can even disagree with their assessment, but
in the end we can only either accept it and move on and continue to
support a build based on GTK+ or reject it and drop support for it.
Anything else is largely irrelevant.

Tim

Re: gtk scroll bar: upstream bug report

[grischka]

> The opinions of emacs developers are largely irrelevant - we can try
> to argue the case and we can even disagree with their assessment, but
> in the end we can only either accept it and move on and continue to
> support a build based on GTK+ or reject it and drop support for it.
> Anything else is largely irrelevant.
>
> Tim

It adds to the irrelevance that apparently nobody ever tried the
suggested feature.  It was never proven that it would work well,
not even for emacs, AFAICS.

The GTK people, whatever their policy is, are surely GUI practitioners
Their estimate might be pretty accurate.  If you come to them without
anything to show off they might well conclude that the best thing they
can do is to protect you against doing something silly.

--- grischka