From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Jeff Norden Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 12:09:48 -0500 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="55122"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 26 19:13:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jdd8T-000DHm-6F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 19:13:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43412 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdd7o-0001cI-Ie for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 13:12:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdd6h-0000kr-MR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 13:11:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mta.tntech.edu ([149.149.2.87]:50523) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdd6g-0003pu-4f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 13:11:15 -0400 Original-Received: from math.tntech.edu (unknown [149.149.102.6]) by mta.tntech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79AAB3000056; Tue, 26 May 2020 12:09:51 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: from norden.tntech.edu ([149.149.102.4] helo=norden.math.tntech.edu) by math.tntech.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jdd5J-0008EZ-6J; Tue, 26 May 2020 12:09:49 -0500 Original-Received: by norden.math.tntech.edu (Postfix, from userid 742) id 1DFCE2572B73; Tue, 26 May 2020 12:09:49 -0500 (CDT) X-SA-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-SA-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "math.tntech.edu", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. If you have any questions, contact @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR SPF: test of HELO record failed (temperror) 0.0 T_SPF_TEMPERROR SPF: test of record failed (temperror) Received-SPF: none client-ip=149.149.2.87; envelope-from=jnorden@math.tntech.edu; helo=mta.tntech.edu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/26 13:09:51 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251464 Archived-At: Copied below is what I've posted to lwn.net in response to the article "Mak= ing Emacs popular again" (https://lwn.net/Articles/819452/) about this thread. Some of it, particularly the last part, is in response to that article rath= er than anything that anyone has or would say on the emacs-devel list. ------------------------------ I'm late to this party, but as a longtime user of Gnu emacs, I feel obligat= ed to weigh in. I've been using emacs on an almost daily basis for 30+ years.= I use rmail for about 90% of my email. I use a customized version of TeX mode for composing documents, which include exams/quizzes/handout for the classe= s I teach, research-related work, as well as mundane letters, memos, notes, etc. I use emacs for all of the software that I write and/or dabble with, mostly Perl and C. I use shell-mode about as often as I use a terminal window (currently mate-terminal, a fork of the pre-gnome-3 gnome-terminal). To start with, the idea that emacs "needs" to have more users to prevent it from becoming "extinct" is basically absurd. Free software, by its very nature, *can't* become extinct. Even if current trends/fads mean that there is a lull in the number of people using Gnu emacs today, the source code wi= ll still be available for future generations to discover and use. It's about like saying that we must find a way to make the "Early New English" language of the 17th century more appealing and widely spoken in order to prevent the works of Shakespeare from becoming extinct. Even if, for some reason, peop= le stopped reading and producing Shakespeare's plays for a number of years, th= ey would undoubtedly be re-discovered and become popular again. This all seems to be part of the current insane attitude that software, and technology in general, is some sort of perishable commodity with the shelf life of milk. Somehow, if it isn't updated every month or so, it just isn't any good any more, even though it still does what it used to and your needs for it haven't changed. Emacs has never been an editor for "casual" user. It doesn't compete with notepad, any of the various "office" editors (open source or not), or even vi/vim. Gnu emacs is for people that want an extensible editor that gives them complete control over how it operates, and can be easily and freely customized to accomplish any sort of task that they want it to. This sort = of freedom comes with a price - you need to invest some time and effort in ord= er to learn how to use it effectively. But for many of us, it is an effort th= at has been more than worthwhile. In my opinion, it would be incredibly counterproductive to try to attract people who don't need the functionality that emacs provides, or who aren't willing to put forth the effort required to learn how to effectively use th= at functionality. I believe this means that any person who's decision on whet= her or not to use an editor is swayed by the appearance of buttons or rounded corners is someone who should *not* be encouraged to start using emacs. If you are not attracted to emacs by the features it provides and the tasks it can accomplish, then please find an editor that will better suit your needs. On the other hand, if someone wants to add such features for their own benefit, perhaps because they feel it will enhance their own aesthetic experience while using emacs, then by all means do so. That is the whole point of free software, after all. But adding these in an attempt to attra= ct more users is a bad idea. My *fear* is that a major effort to increase the "user base" will lead to t= he transformation of emacs into something that doesn't serve anybody's needs v= ery well. This is happening in many open source projects, where all sorts of functionality has been deprecated and then removed because of the perception that it isn't needed or being used by a large enough fraction of users. The recent loss of malloc_get_state() and malloc_set_state() are examples that = are particularly relevant to emacs. Even in emacs, I personally found it a bit annoying to type "M-x count lines region" only to be told in the mini-buffer that: =E2=80=98count-lines-region=E2=80=99 is obsolete; use =E2=80=98count-word= s-region=E2=80=99 instead. But this was easily fixed by adding a single line to my .emacs file. Howev= er, if large blocks of code start disappearing from the source, or changes are made that render existing elisp files unusable, then emacs really will run = the risk of becoming extinct. For example, a package of elisp functions that I wrote 30 years ago for emacs-18, which I use to record and average student grades, still works just fine with emacs-26. TeX is the only other software that I know of with this level of stability. It seems that there are very few people today who, like Knuth and Stallman, take a long-term view of what they are trying to accomplish. I could go on along these lines, but this is probably sufficie= nt. ---- However, I feel that I must respond directly to some of the comments about = RMS that have been made, along the lines of "emacs would be better without him"= or his "signature tantrums." I'll respond in a way that RMS never would, beca= use he is far too polite: Do you have any idea who the f*** you are talking about!!? When Richard founded the FSF, which basically started the free software movement, people tried to write him off as some sort of extremest nutcase. "Nobody will write software and just give it away" was a common criticism. Well, history has shown that Stallman was correct, and his critics were the nutcases. It's quite possible that there would be almost no free software,= no linux or lwn.net, no gitlab/github, etc, etc, if it had not been for his unfailing efforts and unwavering belief in free software though the years. = My own opinion is that, if anything, Richard's opinions and views are a bit too mild and conservative. The arrogance of youth is natural. I was certainly guilty of it when I was young. But there is no excuse for disrespecting the people who basically built the universe that you currently enjoy inhabiting. -Jeff