Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Steve Youngs]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4448 bytes --]

To Emacsians Everywhere!

A few of you know what I am about to say, a few of you could probably
make a pretty good educated guess, the rest of you... well, you're in
for a treat.

For quite a while now I've felt that only having 2 one true editors
wasn't enough.  So I have created a third.

It is called "SXEmacs" and it is a fork of XEmacs 21.4.16.

,----[ Our Mission Statement: ]
| To provide the Open Source community with a text editing and
| development environment that is based on XEmacs and is 2nd to none
| in regards to stability, features, and innovation.
|
| To foster a user and developer friendly project environment.
|
| And, above all, to have fun doing it.
`----

Before I go any further, please, if you wish to follow up to this
message, observe the MFT header.  Discussion of SXEmacs on the XEmacs
and GNU/Emacs forums I've posted to here would not be appropriate.
This is a one off post just to let people know what is going on.

So why would I do such an incredibly foolish thing that probably has
more chance of failing than succeeding?  Well, isn't that reason
enough? 

And for those of you who can't comprehend that, here are some more
boring, mundane reasons:

        o I believe that XEmacs, even 21.4, is too broken and
          unstable.

        o I want to make some fairly radical changes that I know the
          Review Board would never go for.

        o I want a development environment that doesn't get boiled
          down in "politics".

        o I want more control of the project as a whole and at the
          same time make it easier for developers to contribute and
          become involved.

Some of the items we have on our "todo" list (quotes there, because I
just realised we don't actually have a physical list yet :-P):

        o Use GNU/arch (tla) for revision control instead of CVS.
          This is already done.  My repo is at steve@sxemacs.org--2004
          http://arch.sxemacs.org/2004/

        o Have a written procedures and policies manual. (partially
          completed)

        o Use a PostgreSQL'd Bugzilla for issue tracking. (we have it
          in place but unfortunately the guy I have handling it for
          us broke something and currently we can't connect to it)

        o Move away from GNU coding standards in the C code and write
          code in a manner that the gods intended.  I'm following fairly
          closely the Linux kernel in this regard.  I have already run
          indent(1) over all the C code.

        o autoconf 2.5x compatible. (not begun)

        o Remove every scrape of Windoze code. (not begun)  SXEmacs
          will _NOT_ run on Windoze.

        o Back port Mike Sperber's KKCC garbage collector from XEmacs
          21.5.  And at a later stage look at using the Boehm GC.

        o Back port Jerry James' DSO, bignum, bigfloat, and ratio work
          from XEmacs 21.5.

        o Multi-threading

        o Do away with the idea of a buffer being nothing more than a
          string. 

        o FFI -- Foreign Function Interface (pretty much like DSO's
          but far more flexible)

        o Possibly move to a client/server model

        o A package system where the package tells SXEmacs where and
          how to get updates.

It is our intention to maintain compatibility on the lisp level with
XEmacs for as long as we can.  Providing that compatibility doesn't
hinder SXEmacs' growth and potential.

For now in SXEmacs:

  (and running-xemacs
       running-sxemacs
       (featurep '(and sxemacs xemacs)))
   => t  

Our aim is _NOT_ to hinder the development or progress of either the
XEmacs project or the GNU/Emacs project.  In fact, it is exactly the
opposite.  Our innovations will benefit the other projects even if
those innovations prove to be bad or unsuccessful.

We don't wish to eventually become absorbed into the XEmacs (or
GNU/Emacs) code base, and we have no desire for the opposite to
happen.

I'm a leader, not a follower, the SXEmacs Project is the same.  I
sincerely hope you can keep up with (even surpass) us.

Everyone at the SXEmacs Project and myself would like to wish you and
your families a very happy and safe New Year's.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
|                        In space,                         |
|             No one can hear you rip a stinky             |
|------------------------------------<steve@sxemacs.org>---|

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 256 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
Emacs-devel mailing list
Emacs-devel@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Robert J. Chassell]

Steve Youngs <steve@sxemacs.org> wrote

  o I want a development environment that doesn't get boiled
          down in "politics".

That is wonderful!  

What method are you going to use?  After all, neither you nor any
other developer is interested in politics, but must have others force
politics upon you.

The XEmacs people decided on irrelevance: be obscure, do not do
anything that supports the rights of others to develop.  The GNU
people decided to fight, even though they do not want to.
Fortunately, that mostly means most do not have to fight.

Are you going to make sure that every contributor makes sure his or
her employer or university provides legal papers that will convince a
judge that the contributor has or had the legal right to contribute?
That way when someone unfriendly sues a company you have never heard
of for plagiarism (obviously, no one will sue you or other developers)
the case is thrown out of court.

Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one takes
someone else to court?

Also, how are you planning to avoid the politics of patents?  No one
into software development and freedom will go near them, unless forced
to.  So what will give you the power to keep them away (besides being
obviously irrelevant, or are you planning on irrelevance)?

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

> Steve Youngs <steve@sxemacs.org> wrote
>
>   o I want a development environment that doesn't get boiled
>           down in "politics".
>
> That is wonderful!  

Yes, it's great ;)

> What method are you going to use?  After all, neither you nor any
> other developer is interested in politics, but must have others force
> politics upon you.

We have the PPM to resolve most "political" issues -- I hope.

> The XEmacs people decided on irrelevance: be obscure, do not do
> anything that supports the rights of others to develop.  The GNU
> people decided to fight, even though they do not want to.
> Fortunately, that mostly means most do not have to fight.

I do not understand, I don't think I want to even try.

> Are you going to make sure that every contributor makes sure his or
> her employer or university provides legal papers that will convince a
> judge that the contributor has or had the legal right to contribute?
> That way when someone unfriendly sues a company you have never heard
> of for plagiarism (obviously, no one will sue you or other developers)
> the case is thrown out of court.

What do you mean?  Do not assume US laws apply to the rest of the
world!  In Iceland, I don't think any company or organization can
suppress a contribution and I have the court rulings to back it up.

Individual contributors will simply have to guarantee the legality of
their contributions.  Is that concept so hard to understand?

> Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one
> takes someone else to court?

Some of us live in countries where stupid law suits don't happen.  Or
get thrown out of court or ruled *right*.  At least I've heard no
horror stories about any.

> Also, how are you planning to avoid the politics of patents?  No one
> into software development and freedom will go near them, unless
> forced to.  So what will give you the power to keep them away
> (besides being obviously irrelevant, or are you planning on
> irrelevance)?

What software patents?  There is no such thing in europe (yet) and I
honestly don't think there ever will be (for long anyway).  I can't
wouch for Australia (where Steve is), but I presume the laws there are
roughly compatible with the British ones.

I get annoyed when people think the world is limited to the United
States of a certain continent.

Johann

-- 
This line is left blank intentionally

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Robert J. Chassell]

   ... In Iceland, I don't think any company or organization can
   suppress a contribution and I have the court rulings to back it up.

That is excellent.  I know nothing about Iceland.

However, I have talked to people in Malaysia, Brazil, and other places
besides the US.  In those countries, a claim of plagerism is legally
possible.  It has become necessary for a developer to be able to prove
to a court that he or she has not stolen a contribution.  (This is not
about suppressing a contribution you made; it is about someone else's
rights to a contribution that perhaps he or she made.)

In addition, corporations operate in Europe and the US, not just in
Iceland.  The world in which people may use software is not limited to
Iceland.  It has become necessary to think about safety in places like
Malaysia and Brazil, as well as Poland, France, and Canada.

   What software patents?  There is no such thing in europe (yet) ....

Right.  `Yet' is the operative word.  I hope Europe never adopts
software patents.  As far as I can see, it is better to prevent them
than to try to fight them after they have become law and gained more
supporters.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Richard Stallman]

    What software patents?  There is no such thing in europe (yet)

You feel safe because you have not seen the danger.  I wish that you
really were as safe as you feel.

The European Patent Office has issued around 40,000 software patents,
in direct defiance of the treaty that established it.  Whether they
have validity, given these facts, is not clear.

About a week ago, the Council of Ministers tried to pass a directive
to authorize software patents as an "uncontroversial" measure
in a meeting supposedly devoted to fishing and agriculture.
It was blocked by Poland.  If you look at www.gnu.org, you will
see a banner saying "Thank You, Poland".  If you follow the link
and add your name, you will do a little to help keep the EU safe.

For several years now I have been giving speeches in many EU countries
about the danger of software patents.  Many others have been
campaigning too.  But we need more help, more strength.  Please
recognize the danger, and help fight it.  If you wait until this
directive passes, it will be too late to do anything.

I will be in Iceland Jan 7-12 giving speeches, and I think software
patents will be one of the topics.  Everyone in Iceland who is
interested in using software had better start paying attention to the
issue.  Iceland cannot help save Europe, but if Europe falls,
Iceland will need to save itself.

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[David Kastrup]

"Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson" <johann@myrkraverk.com> writes:

> What do you mean?  Do not assume US laws apply to the rest of the
> world!  In Iceland, I don't think any company or organization can
> suppress a contribution and I have the court rulings to back it up.

Nonsense.  You can't contribute what is not rightfully your own, and
that's one of the things that the oh so obnoxious papers try to
prevent.

> Individual contributors will simply have to guarantee the legality
> of their contributions.  Is that concept so hard to understand?

Without anything in writing?  Without any pointers of what to watch
for?  What form does such a "guarantee" take?

>> Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one
>> takes someone else to court?
>
> Some of us live in countries where stupid law suits don't happen.

Nonsense.  The law has border cases in _all_ countries, and it is
impossible to write laws which lead to satisfactory outcomes for all
possible cases.  That's exactly why there are lawyers and judges in
every country.

> What software patents?  There is no such thing in europe (yet) and I
> honestly don't think there ever will be (for long anyway).

AFAIK the European patent office has already issued quite a number of
software patents.  Only when a directive sufficiently different from
the current draft (that hopefully does not get through) will pass
legislation, will the already granted patents be rendered invalid.  At
least that's what I understand.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Alex Schroeder]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

> Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one takes
> someone else to court?

Why post such flame bait?

Alex.
-- 
.O.  http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
..O  Schroeder's fifth law:
OOO  Never accept more work than you can handle in one night of hacking.

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Robert J. Chassell]

   > Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one takes
   > someone else to court?

   Why post such flame bait?

It is not flame bait.  Security by obscurity is a major mechanism.  In
some circumstances, it works.  It is especially attractive to people
who figure that the work to which they contribute will never be taken
up sufficiently as to attract predators.

I am curious about your plans.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: "Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson" <johann@myrkraverk.com>
   Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:51:52 +0000

   I get annoyed when people think the world is limited to the United
   States of a certain continent.

you can generalize your annoyance to all sorts of shortsightedness.
*that* is what politics is about (and how to conceal that truth).

because human beings are not omniscient, you cannot avoid politics: you
may be able to sidestep some of the uglier manifestations of politics
for some honeymoon period, but in doing so you engage in ignorance, and
in the end practicing ignorance is what will bring politics to your
doorstep whether you like it or not.  nobody can avoid practicing
ignorance.  the best one can do is to choose what to ignore wisely.

if you wish to truly "avoid politics" you must avoid people.  i don't
recommend that course of action, personally, although i understand its
common motivations and sympathize (more often some times than others :-).

basically, creating sxemacs is a already political move.  you know not
yourselves if you maintain otherwise.  if you know not yourselves, will
wily hackers be ready to partake in this deception?

thi

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Alex Schroeder]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:

>    > Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one takes
>    > someone else to court?
>
>    Why post such flame bait?
>
> It is not flame bait.

I felt it was.  I object to the tone.  Whether I agree with the FSF
paperwork is irrelevant to my objection.

Alex.
-- 
.O.  http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
..O  Schroeder's fifth law:
OOO  Never accept more work than you can handle in one night of hacking.

Re: Merry Xmas and a... OMG, what did you just say?

[Miles Bader]

> >    > Or are you planning to be so irrelevant and obscure that no one takes
> >    > someone else to court?
> >
> >    Why post such flame bait?
> >
> > It is not flame bait.
> 
> I felt it was.  I object to the tone.

I expect it's exactly the method that the original poster _was_
planning on using though.  The "Who would sue me, I'm just some little
guy?" approach.  The tone was a bit snarky, but then so was Steve's
original message ...

[First reindenting all the source code?  Eyes roll...]

-Miles