From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 05:41:50 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----59HU52WKRJKZ5A1M5ZJW998PV74MOX" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535427644 9270 195.159.176.226 (28 Aug 2018 03:40:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 03:40:44 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Android Cc: hw , Eli Zaretskii , Alexis , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Filipp Gunbin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 28 05:40:40 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fuUrv-0002JR-Gu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2018 05:40:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36084 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fuUu1-00054Z-Bv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 23:42:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41445) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fuUtF-00054P-EN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 23:42:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fuUtB-0006Sm-Cn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 23:42:01 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic308-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.178.148]:45617) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fuUtB-0006SH-4x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 23:41:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535427715; bh=isqTUDzDv18K9MSi3Yu2i1xQhUIUZiwonJyoT0d677w=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From:Subject; b=GRrEeBGBWsMbX8FWwQTkygwWEAvXCNOMOlX2dR7iV46PUd2Cuq4iABwB+IzLy911MRhQ0VPAPzwgu65BcNiGCetRJeJm6a/je2+vDm1qnq3n5P2JmQT1j412AC1FuSYVD3lG37u09ghxEdZzcV9RIqBeq4wH+Q1ItDqfUWTgb672d7AkSvgjH0BMvDc3It3r4a0nw8X8fYFJ3VOZQMaWByNPpgcFlluObFWbNNdQyki8PRcE5xrYe2eQMTNSauSdOj18LnlcsgPeqr7MNhBjJIS+NCiskTyM+kKdWSstLdtHhKUzYRZdgv4whxIo3MNewcQQLJDv71MgeRqHdA18wA== X-YMail-OSG: AYxmOdIVM1n49XazWq_E4Inh7lWfZyjZNpn57.Fy1ObRB2Z1TiEQ1ro1fN3715l ATH9ATKMjp0y6MMr_ST6Cs4vWMeRZcQ3O97Y0DlQfJ8w9R2mgr95vtYFxoTh_wHIzZbUYhYUQsNX bZbbL10Pkv15L0npv0L8V3jagh5sdLnEnDQ4nVzlpaGQOKi4vPe.V6fRPIcXjbngsjA55y6mbOZF NW9PCcpNcXUkliXSk5.rhog6JhlygJlTin.g0kQEJXywkPxtyJNsQEY7w8Mw.m8vfd1me8z1.b_W lATDPUi48AJ6DuQVJXrq0D2U87.bbMCP3ptcEVtdWp1GyzyBaq48tqYAART9bjW.B2hL_Ue99Rhr 6AvfqBBhdvtBdnL0RYJsyr9qXa4e3kOseWO69jcFF9mqazxRqeqryfYmJf_dUsoqFDAdEHX4FQMe LPqlUJbp8mtsp.iyjUx3IMACQcWuOrsMC30f76bCFdpJWS47J7XJalhYm8Cj9l3z7.M9ODskTfRc s2kcnMxygkEFY6lwp9V15FBBDj62PoxuIkUvMFGpRqtG6BymQKi9iITTAI4CcHULxjOJKXTZRuf2 AvG.erD33DoKyzO367t4MfLevi7pPdO_0XjbCUlSqILSQUkg1hvjYNF2OStVttRyFByWyLJOMP16 0ZRFkVkL54kf4hSnIjFdZK1bHjOTtzNX1qXoCC9zT7J8Y1Ghvyf9nnK7N_JBxMbfZSrHROwoWJE4 3aYBVHX0M0AxuIjzXZvF4XaF_C3q_f7SR9okimr9S6DGothZekgJNyecTrJENYuqfFdoFQ2pCU.0 vQpkVrC_LkT3Hj7Jl3GTTby7HxMYaiTTO_CK_PZ.gZ Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Aug 2018 03:41:55 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO [192.168.1.6]) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1afa1ec7d0deb0c039ad507c7d28d167; Tue, 28 Aug 2018 03:41:52 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Referenced-Uid: 426 Thread-Topic: Re: Some developement questions X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.178.148 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:228995 Archived-At: ------59HU52WKRJKZ5A1M5ZJW998PV74MOX Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Emacs has survived because it has adapted to the times before=2E Sadly it i= s not getting enough new/younger users if we compare with vim=2E Why prom= ote tje creation of more derivatives if we could have a bigger community an= d avoid effort duplication, keep control, some order and reduce entropy, ke= eping standar format for documentation and closer communication and interac= tion and developement? As well as more potential contributions/contributors= /developers? Spacemacs is pretty good but it has changed the configuration= experience too much removing flexibility and some control to the user; tha= ts the only thing to complain about it=2E It automatizes many things and re= qires too many packages and dependencies in the basic state and adding a ne= w package requires to create a pluging with 3 files=2E=2E=2E That's not the= idea and it is not a right way to introduce emacs to newer users(in my opp= inion), in spite of the interaction experience is good enough=2E Why not j= ust improve the emacs defaults and the first impression? It is basically so= me ergonomy and marketing=2E Emacs is and should stay being a software for = final users, and not developed as a base for derivatives like a kernel or s= o=2E In spite of many derivatives have existed among the years=2E Adaptati= on is the key for surviving=2E =E2=81=A3Sent from BlueMail =E2=80=8B On 2= 7 Aug 2018, 19:11, at 19:11, Filipp Gunbin wrote: >= On 25/08/2018 12:34 +0200, Ergus wrote: > >> Newer users will go straight t= o google/duckduckgo to make the >> questions=2E Not only because they don't= know exactly the name of what >> they are looking for, but also because th= at's the stackoverflow's >> culture=2E In the beginning they just want some= code to copy and paste >> in the config=2E > >What I read in this thread m= akes me think that all this applies more to >Spacemacs and other derivative= s=2E I doubt it makes sense to support in >default Emacs some configuratio= n(s) for ever-changing landscape of >packages/plugins=2E Sounds like a job= for a derivative's developers=2E ------59HU52WKRJKZ5A1M5ZJW998PV74MOX Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Emacs has survived because it ha= s adapted to the times before=2E Sadly it is not getting enough new/younger= users if we compare with vim=2E

Why promo= te tje creation of more derivatives if we could have a bigger community and= avoid effort duplication, keep control, some order and reduce entropy, kee= ping standar format for documentation and closer communication and interact= ion and developement? As well as more potential contributions/contributors/= developers?

Spacemacs is pretty good but it= has changed the configuration experience too much removing flexibility and= some control to the user; thats the only thing to complain about it=2E It = automatizes many things and reqires too many packages and dependencies in t= he basic state and adding a new package requires to create a pluging with 3= files=2E=2E=2E That's not the idea and it is not a right way to introduce = emacs to newer users(in my oppinion), in spite of the interaction experienc= e is good enough=2E

Why not just improve th= e emacs defaults and the first impression? It is basically some ergonomy an= d marketing=2E Emacs is and should stay being a software for final users, a= nd not developed as a base for derivatives like a kernel or so=2E In spite = of many derivatives have existed among the years=2E
Adaptation is the key for surviving=2E

Sent from BlueMail
On 27 Aug 2018, at 19:11, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail=2Efm>= wrote:
On 25/08/2018 12:34 +0200, Ergus wrote:

 Newer users will go straight to google/d=
uckduckgo to make the
 questions=2E Not only because they don't know exa=
ctly the name of what
 they are looking for, but also because that's the=
 stackoverflow's
 culture=2E In the beginning they just want some code t=
o copy and paste
 in the config=2E

What I read in th=
is thread makes me think that all this applies more to
Spacemacs and oth=
er derivatives=2E  I doubt it makes sense to support in
default Emacs so=
me configuration(s) for ever-changing landscape of
packages/plugins=2E  =
Sounds like a job for a derivative's developers=2E
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