From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:44 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <83tujbqg4j.fsf@gnu.org> <46353190-1190-495f-b15e-22980159b3ab@yandex.ru> <83y28mp0rb.fsf@gnu.org> <51a363db-fde7-791d-cf8d-98ac601d62ee@yandex.ru> <57ca4d78-2339-201d-edce-678c9b003a99@yandex.ru> <83bl5dsh8b.fsf@gnu.org> <8335qps8vs.fsf@gnu.org> <9471c28f-8eae-b555-ee86-9fffd6229937@yandex.ru> <87r1e690n8.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <9d5a2f83-d564-22e1-0cbd-df760044528f@yandex.ru> <837dfyyxyl.fsf@gnu.org> <64ec57fc-4cd0-4e4a-1139-de1c3ddc8d82@yandex.ru> <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1111"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, danflscr@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, john@yates-sheets.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 03 14:13:20 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mM84O-0000Bn-MJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:13:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47318 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM84N-0003Bg-IF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:13:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59856) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM82y-00012k-4f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:11:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::433]:42531) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mM82v-0001Lo-Ki; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:11:51 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id q11so7922409wrr.9; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 05:11:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iz51fcLDKjjdtK5Uf4aKWFS3pPj6YKcr+93VUm2NeWs=; b=l73ATCID687vsYsHf8box7G+ntLt0+kMuyS0ukhFcSEglhPuerB2+MJM3J6Bc1WY+x B8HGMQiCGIUq/bLgq6zMF9pknQY0pkd48Baql8ziSc5f2dTYfkLuKGPBRBGx7pg4hq/U NCbR82GHRtWEev7opMXbtRFblY5hTMUZ7i0I6J9XwVjZQ2XBgCM/rdMddHCNd6fcOLnU xeEpfb4cudXXLrZHCpznmdx/TQy9sFvXSYGnY/SHhdsKBZlivOyCEAfq4U7JN5E4FZpF NsRRrdxaAbmU+8f2rhBe0V7P9KsxCKOZVUw83y/79XDMSTU/y3FxgsCX6+TrjCssYa5R VbgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iz51fcLDKjjdtK5Uf4aKWFS3pPj6YKcr+93VUm2NeWs=; b=XeMXZ47dRAUL5WGoYf6a5MaUziGF6yH6L6yWqgopR2/FeXcMVgltEWFK5lv+m/R15p GlUNgQ1Vd9MW3YB9sB1XlX4VQVc9Gnp98ztGWyBnTK2OFE7maTHpsQzixr62mntB1oPa kM/CfzAWsm/r0IRfnSHFU7WK74S29ljNfvGfJFegeM4pm7X+Ex7sHtH3vaIf+H/qHYcb u7rjh9cyBDwJ4U/RYGfWBMq/ZrUeUlZVd0rJ9+F2dogWLYZEnsUZZhy+rQzp0kwM6PS8 l7/eJnet3fz+5NVampHblXFGPBYEt0M0gFUPY88pbmiwP+rsluASVhS/ru+/VBEiOL/n ffhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Tn2CWmdp55XfaMUv91nV/pPL5o/hrfs5V5k6cBqBh3P3jIWBP Y8zZ4E8gQqEtOu/Kg0b2SlixZ6L7Xb4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwur63OO5OMH3mRDjWMOaziAd9GQelPwAv/NlSLFNjCJXzZnbKpFwVp4zj1mg1AzGlZbUvYWQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:63d2:: with SMTP id c18mr3752862wrw.240.1630671107416; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 05:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u23sm4091442wmc.24.2021.09.03.05.11.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 05:11:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83sfylykhx.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::433; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x433.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -23 X-Spam_score: -2.4 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.888, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273773 Archived-At: On 03.09.2021 14:19, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Again you try to change any discussion of a change into an "addition". >> Something that wouldn't change anything in the default behavior. > > Because I think that's a much better way forward, in the long run. > But if you want to insist on changing the defaults without the opt-in > changes first, I guess we will be having this discussion many times in > the future. That is just side-stepping the question. There was never any disagreement about opt-in changes, and when it is feasible, we of course have taken that route. >> What's so peculiar about changing the behavior that flies in the face of >> existing practice in all programming languages out there? And which >> causes confusion in new users? >> >> The way it is implemented made sense decades ago, but these days even >> users who want tabs for indentation are surprised by Emacs behavior in >> this area (because most of those users want 1 tab to mean 1 indentation >> level). > > You tried convincing in this before, and you failed. That discussion is a great example of the problems I wrote about in this thread: we don't pay any attention to polls, hard statistics, articles and user posts (of which I produced plenty). A few folks say "I don't like", and that's the end of it. > IME, at least on > my daytime job, source code produced by people these days with popular > IDEs (not Emacs) includes TABs. Does it include tabs in the same fashion as what is produced by Emacs? Which actually mixes tabs and spaces. > So at least my experience disagrees > with yours. Which might explain why this change didn't happen. I wasn't just listing my experience. > Someone suggested to have "themes" in Emacs which could change the > defaults of many settings in one simple command. Why not invest the > energy we waste in these endless discussions in making that happen? > It at least would make the changes easier for newbies, if nothing > else. A few reasons. I don't really want to make Emacs more complex than it is. I usually strive to make the existing workflows simpler. There are only so many hours in a day. Further: what kind of theme would include indent-tabs-mode set to nil? A theme called 'Sane Defaults'? The users would need to find out about it somehow and then enable anyway, so what would make it different from having a custom option called indent-tabs-mode, which we have already?