From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Lift {global,local}-key-binding to Lisp Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:03:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <83zh1cbpua.fsf@gnu.org> <00a56206-80a0-c2c5-5247-d6be21fea5c0@yandex.ru> <83turi9ywk.fsf@gnu.org> <11389fbf-d937-e081-0a4a-bcb149defdf5@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30110"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 15 19:04:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l0TSa-0007hY-KC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 19:04:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58336 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l0TSZ-0006bP-N4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:04:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l0TRT-00066f-9T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:03:23 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:33334) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l0TRR-0000ID-28; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:03:22 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 10FHi1KQ015718; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:03:12 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=zEMmccA8lWSGcwQGUBLN7qXUYItF+Id9SP7KBz5u9QE=; b=g4nt9n3X4ZAUJ4m/s/BiSMbrKGgFEDglnHAZJ992TxmlmcteyyINihDgNPCZHM+u0us/ xT/bnev6nGy1w+GsWN9fJDu6UdLRPpFwi+PWVh/6lPVqGCxoJT4hvpVmB8ksyJEjEkea H3MbAM7dHKRzR2i/gi+22cs+ROVfXWrDIjy3OTsRWVKNl45t4Cx2w6VKuBj8UUIdvp9R m1A99C+y3cKbwAn3cyN5dcAuDq5m1b+HKMS5zbI+v2PxirJ1bfl2fURNSBunW6yxB3UD pMmy2eIQoIujA8XUz0FRViYxtcaz4+sg26CehTXuU72I4MOkJY7kSssGi0V/035utZxA cQ== Original-Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 360kd063xb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:03:12 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 10FHigDd097985; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:03:11 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 360kfbcmq1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:03:10 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 10FI37xX005660; Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:03:09 GMT In-Reply-To: <11389fbf-d937-e081-0a4a-bcb149defdf5@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5095.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9865 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101150108 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9865 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101150108 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -46 X-Spam_score: -4.7 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.25, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:263081 Archived-At: > >> Consider that, when a piece of code is implemented in Lisp, it's easie= r > >> for us "mere mortals" to find it, read, understand and debug it. Even > >> more so when it comes to people outside of emacs-devel. > >> > >> So as a result you should end up answering fewer questions about it. > > > > I invite you to have a look at the C implementation of these two > > functions, and then explain to me how the original code was any harder > > for "mere mortals" to understand, let alone trigger some questions. >=20 > It is, though of course the function is short. >=20 > As such, the arguments both for and against this change are relatively > weak. Surely you won't have many troubles because of this move either. > So both you and others in this thread are really arguing on principle. There's also the consideration that many users will not have bothered to download the C source code. `C-h f' describes a function, and gives you a link to its source definition. (Use the source, Luke!) But that link is less useful if the source is C code, in two cases: (1) the user doesn't grok C well, (2) the user doesn't have the C sources. Sure, anyone can get to the source code for any particular bit of Emacs, e.g., using the GIT mirror on the web. But having a Lisp definition available locally is a heck of a lot more user-friendly than jumping through extra hoops to check C code. And this particular argument, at least, is even stronger in the case of simple, easy-to-read C code. In that case, both the Lisp and C code are clear, but missing C code locally is a particular bother. Just one consideration to add to the discussion. Not necessarily the most important one, but one that directly affects users.