From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs popular again with a video Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 09:51:22 +0200 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="87914"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 Cc: colinetnathan98@gmail.com, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: Tim Cross , Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 09:52:24 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ8fH-000Mho-Dn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 09:52:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34176 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ8fG-0006yx-F8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:52:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ8eR-0005aE-94 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:51:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.24]:48229) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ8eP-0001F7-Nd; Thu, 14 May 2020 03:51:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.178.21] ([94.134.177.53]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MMGZM-1jq7nm3H4Y-00JFpi; Thu, 14 May 2020 09:51:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:M07HgWoicPLSfnnEQn0wxkBHx6Ih+SeMH3MAvjlcqoCegcCN/EZ +HA6dEdepyg1CDSwL8Zp0Gnsoi+GnNlzah3gb/PGq+qfwhGt9uyB4oumIu5J4vESCKW7cRu tAD3yiZVHHqEv9WWP3upZUckshYV8GhLjjC9Gi0Og6oMhh3/R+3D8378G2AT75+iyW/ufXk CUEE+qabiMG2KxbmTkpDQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BRo0Nao1Z5Q=:qVcO9ZOcLrAet6IkIfcR/A w7SLkSVrwIr2RHa/302D2hSJPICw4iZWPdjpsNDKvnkgHe2/BskqPkFqaf4Fds52ebGLGFl1E cHJjuspIm3Ew34Yk1T7tRNk+kAdZGIu2E0X5AUhiqPqBNQj4jZBSkV4I1DBxT1Y64I6BZG0m+ joIQ5drlWQdSvb59NKn6QX6RlbcIXxpJ2nxy0SdfN4iy2qNqDOtPlQt/paqMkcXTeNqrxzQyC i8eZrEe4KOq82SGlZ8o5/v0MFillsRe+4LXZfj4Ga4wMyxYY1glkrwQrbLtviXiKgTdJRDS61 PJtKyU1dFMjxuca4RnraGOtBHNtKZjy5TgLwX1IygKgDH53QD5G/ihlmqchUKgBflh0TnsiQb T8p/vIG7wFwjCNrXTB96qrMjH6jCOWhqW/hKXjk1hu6LsUvnoxticQYR9L6t5MTcvnl9Zkboz EDHmzO6Jsl14Q84ckLZmg0+WzvtjQ/01CGkTS7koZoyDLQ3U205rtfcTKr4kE1kjZisfhz15i 32N6yee/XJWGAi5G2Yv+Is/8scddMjQeZonDsK3fdv1GZy984dF7karJAZp93w9OZ+up9gK5a j2uAEFEAbusASX+vP0ZaucEMqlY+Gg1r0JAswxldhQlgfRfU12vX2DAIu3BQVk/lswy81Q3Sm Zz/93JJfysk7cDMmPGhXjGEozWtTx7TRM5egg0KwelShM2pLaNL7h0an4Mpr7yyNJgl+KsLUf 7UYNgrhPqD7rxkF85tLxD/MLoS8H8u4LjBZnIJxFoI4eIcx9VnO0giTEpXMw18Jj4QZE1sjS Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.24; envelope-from=andreas.roehler@online.de; helo=mout.kundenserver.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/14 02:09:18 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250215 Archived-At: Am 14.05.2020 um 09:38 schrieb Tim Cross: > On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:50, Arthur Miller wrote: > >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >>> >>> > > Do Emacs's current competitors have the same capabilities? >>> > They have pretty much everything but "self-documenting", which should >>> > maybe be referred as "self-retrospecting" feature. >>> >>> Do people think it is desirable to delete most of that intro text? >>> It is uder 15 lines; perhaps it is harmless to keep it. >> I don't think it is very important issue. It is normal to have a bit >> longer introductorty text/description about application. It just does >> not need to take screen estate on the welcome screen maybe? >> >> By the way, I probably wouldn't try to identify Emacs as just a text >> editor longer. Personally I see Emacs as en extensible platform, or >> system (not in a sense of that joke of operating system), a tool, or >> whatever one might wish to call it. I think it has developed and become >> usefull much more then just as a text editor. Also I think it might help >> if Emacs developed even further in that direction, as a >> "multi-tool/swiss army knife" of human-computer interaction? >> >> I don't use other text editors, so I really don't know how good they are >> at other tasks then just text editing. I usually just take a look for >> the curiosity sake when a new editor/IDE becomes popular, and then I >> usually realize Emacs already has everything I need and just uninstall >> the new thing. >> >> > I think this touches on an important point. Emacs is more than an editor. > To an extent, the editing aspects of Emacs are not particularly interesting > and most of the really great editing features of Emacs have been > incorporated into other editors anyway - it is not really a distinguishing > features. The key to what makes Emacs is a combination of extensibility and > self-documenting. For me, what makes Emacs different from nearly all the > alternatives is the ability to create the work environment and work flows I > want rather than conforming to the environment and workflows someone else > has defined. With a little effort, I can have my projects setup so that all > those boring and repetitive tasks are automated using a common framework, > language and interface. plus I get a whole lot of unified and consistent > tools/commands with that same interface, which makes dealing with the ad > hoc stuff faster/easier as well. > > Unfortunately, this benefit is not going to be universal for all users. If > you don't have a need for workflows or if your requirement is just for > simple editing of text or if your simply not that interested or are happy > to use separate tools and environments etc, your really not going to see a > lot of benefit from Emacs over other editors. This makes me think that > aiming to make Emacs more popular may be a too generic objective. Perhaps > we need to consider who or what group of users we want Emacs to be popular > with. Should we be trying to identifyt which 'market' Emacs is going to be > most beneficial for and then target that group rather than just tyring to > be 'popular' in the more generic sense? A good example how complex stuff might be accessible delivers the success of the Python language.  Just watched a video called "Python Steering Council Community Address" where some roots of this popularity are delivered. For example they have an own section discussing user-experience of beginners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX8fGuh4T_o&feature=youtu.be