bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Juanma Barranquero]

Trying to commit right now produces the following message:

Unable to obtain lock
sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock
held by bob@gnu.org on host benthic [process #13025]
locked 6 hours, 10 minutes ago
Will continue to try until 18:17:32, unless you press Ctrl-C
If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock
sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock

    Juanma

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Karl Fogel]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>Trying to commit right now produces the following message:
>
>Unable to obtain lock
>sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock
>held by bob@gnu.org on host benthic [process #13025]
>locked 6 hours, 10 minutes ago
>Will continue to try until 18:17:32, unless you press Ctrl-C
>If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock
>sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock

I don't know how often this is likely to happen, nor exactly what
circumstances cause it (some kind of uncompleted transaction?).  I
assume if bob confirms he's not active, then you can break the lock.
But still, if this happens a lot, it's going to be very annoying.

Does anyone know if bzr+ssh:// access would avoid this?  That's the
access method the bzr developers recommend; the Savannah ticket about it
is https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?107077.

-Karl

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 18:40, Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> wrote:

> I don't know how often this is likely to happen, nor exactly what
> circumstances cause it (some kind of uncompleted transaction?).  I
> assume if bob confirms he's not active, then you can break the lock.

As the break-lock help says:

  CAUTION: Locks should only be broken when you are sure that the process
  holding the lock has been stopped.

I think someone with admin access should do the unlocking.

    Juanma

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Karl Fogel]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 18:40, Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> wrote:
>> I don't know how often this is likely to happen, nor exactly what
>> circumstances cause it (some kind of uncompleted transaction?).  I
>> assume if bob confirms he's not active, then you can break the lock.
>
>As the break-lock help says:
>
>  CAUTION: Locks should only be broken when you are sure that the process
>  holding the lock has been stopped.
>
>I think someone with admin access should do the unlocking.

Hmm, I'm not sure admin access is necessary.  The "process" here is
driven by bob's sftp from the client side -- if he stopped hours ago,
then the lock is almost surely just dangling on the server side.

But I don't know enough about Bazaar to be sure.  Can you ask on the
Bazaar list to check?

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 19:42, Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> wrote:

> Hmm, I'm not sure admin access is necessary.

I don't think it is necessary to do the unlock, just to check that the
process is really stopped.

> But I don't know enough about Bazaar to be sure.  Can you ask on the
> Bazaar list to check?

I'll ask the next time it happens.

    Juanma

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

    >Unable to obtain lock
    >sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock
    >held by bob@gnu.org on host benthic [process #13025]
    >locked 6 hours, 10 minutes ago

That was me.  (I don't connect to the Internet very often.)  I was
trying to download for about four hours this morning, but not for 6
hours.  It was clearly something wrong.

This afternoon, I moved my /usr/local/src/emacs/ directory to
/usr/local/src/emacs-09dec29 and restarted, following the
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BzrForEmacsDevs document exactly.  I
gave up after a few hours, after getting 181780 kilobytes according to
`du -s'.  According to the progress meter, the download was less than
half done.  I have an old laptop with a half gigabyte of RAM.  The
wireless connection I use might be broken (I cannot fix it -- it is
not mine, but is the only way I can connect.  It works for other
connections, as you can see:  I am SSH'd to fp.gnu.org to mail this
message, but am writing conveniently on a different Emacs on my home
machine.)

In any case, I thought I had downloaded a bzr version that worked
yesterday (I used it successfully today for other things) but it
turned out to fail with sending mail so I have started an older Emacs
and am using that to write this message.  Also, because of a change in
Debian testing, I am no longer coming into X as `bob' but doing the
same as `root' with `sudo -i -u bob rxvt' in my root Enlightenment
.xinitrc file.

I have tried to download the latest CVS version every morning and build
it with the following, and then use it:

   (progn
     (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
     (cvs-update "/usr/local/src/emacs/" '("-dPA")))

   ;; usually takes less than half a minute and 18k
   (progn
      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
      (compile
       "time make -k -C lisp autoloads EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs && \
        cd lisp && \
       time make cvs-update EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs && \
       cd /usr/local/src/emacs/ && \
       time make info html"))

   ;; make may take 20 minutes; usually takes a minute or so
   (progn
     (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
     (compile "time make -k"))

So far, so good!  Only occasionally has there been trouble and it has
been fixed within 24 hours.  But I may not be able to download the bzr
version.

What should I do?  Please remember, I am dumber than I was.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Karl Fogel]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:
>    >Unable to obtain lock
>    >sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock
>    >held by bob@gnu.org on host benthic [process #13025]
>    >locked 6 hours, 10 minutes ago
>
>That was me.  (I don't connect to the Internet very often.)  I was
>trying to download for about four hours this morning, but not for 6
>hours.  It was clearly something wrong.
>
>This afternoon, I moved my /usr/local/src/emacs/ directory to
>/usr/local/src/emacs-09dec29 and restarted, following the
>http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BzrForEmacsDevs document exactly.  I
>gave up after a few hours, after getting 181780 kilobytes according to
>`du -s'.  According to the progress meter, the download was less than
>half done.  I have an old laptop with a half gigabyte of RAM.  The
>wireless connection I use might be broken (I cannot fix it -- it is
>not mine, but is the only way I can connect.  It works for other
>connections, as you can see:  I am SSH'd to fp.gnu.org to mail this
>message, but am writing conveniently on a different Emacs on my home
>machine.)
>
>In any case, I thought I had downloaded a bzr version that worked
>yesterday (I used it successfully today for other things) but it
>turned out to fail with sending mail so I have started an older Emacs
>and am using that to write this message.  Also, because of a change in
>Debian testing, I am no longer coming into X as `bob' but doing the
>same as `root' with `sudo -i -u bob rxvt' in my root Enlightenment
>.xinitrc file.
>
>I have tried to download the latest CVS version every morning and build
>it with the following, and then use it:
>
>   (progn
>     (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
>     (cvs-update "/usr/local/src/emacs/" '("-dPA")))
>
>   ;; usually takes less than half a minute and 18k
>   (progn
>      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
>      (compile
>       "time make -k -C lisp autoloads EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs && \
>        cd lisp && \
>       time make cvs-update EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs && \
>       cd /usr/local/src/emacs/ && \
>       time make info html"))
>
>   ;; make may take 20 minutes; usually takes a minute or so
>   (progn
>     (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/")
>     (compile "time make -k"))
>
>So far, so good!  Only occasionally has there been trouble and it has
>been fixed within 24 hours.  But I may not be able to download the bzr
>version.
>
>What should I do?  Please remember, I am dumber than I was.

Wow.  I don't know why Bzr ballooned that much when trying to branch; as
far as I know it "worked fine for me", but then maybe my machine just
has enough memory that I didn't notice.

If you want, just grab this file:

  http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz

and unpack it as your emacs/ development directory.  That carries you to
the end of "Initialize Your quickfixes Branch" section in the
instructions (you'll have to edit emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/branch.conf to
say "bob" instead of "kfogel", of course).

-Karl

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

    If you want, just grab this file:

      http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz

Thank you.  I downloaded it in 72 minutes.  I have taken longer getting
my .emacs file OK but /usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs seems to work
now.  My Enlightment menu does not, but we will wait on that.  I can
start the emacs with a shell.  Next I am going to bootstrap it with the
changes I got with a `bzr pull'.

How do I avoid a shell and do it all in Emacs?

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Karl Fogel]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:
>      http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz
>
>Thank you.  I downloaded it in 72 minutes.  I have taken longer getting
>my .emacs file OK but /usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs seems to work
>now.  My Enlightment menu does not, but we will wait on that.  I can
>start the emacs with a shell.  Next I am going to bootstrap it with the
>changes I got with a `bzr pull'.
>
>How do I avoid a shell and do it all in Emacs?

Oops, I'm not quite sure what the question is -- what's the "it" here?
Compile Emacs?  Update your local sources using bzr?  Something else?

(If it's the second one, I don't know the answer.  I stopped using VC
almost a decade ago because it didn't seem to be keeping up with the
changes in various version control systems I used.  I understand the
situation is much improved now, but I never went back to VC; I just run
'bzr' in an Emacs shell buffer.)

Best,
-K

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

    I wrote:

        Next I am going to bootstrap it with the
        changes I got with a `bzr pull'.

        How do I avoid a shell and do it all in Emacs?

Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> wrote:

    Oops, I'm not quite sure what the question is -- what's the "it" here?
    Compile Emacs?  Update your local sources using bzr?  

Both, using Emacs scripts such as these two (for the emacs/trunk/
directory):

    (progn
      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk")
      (compile
       "time make -k -C lisp autoloads \
        EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs && \
        cd lisp && \
        time make EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs && \
        cd /usr/local/src/emacs/trunk && \
        time make info html"))

;; and

    (progn
      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/")
      (compile "time make -k"))

(This succeeded this morning, as did the bootstrap which I did in a BASH
shell yesterday.)

I want to update my Emacs each day and build the current Emacs.  Perhaps
the updating and the building will be in different directories, perhaps
not.  (I hope through use to continue testing Emacs every day.)

Also, I want to find out how to shift from the current emacs/trunk/
directory to an emacs/ directory without having to download again and
with the trunk/ and quickfixes/ directory under the emacs/ directory.
My .emacs file and my Emacs scripts have many instances of
"/usr/local/src/emacs/" in them; besides, the emacs/ directory is a good
place to put the sources and compiled files of Emacs.  

Óscar Fuentes suggested using `bzr init-repo <name-of-new-directory>'
and branch rather than the `cp -R' that I had been using before.  (He
also suggested using bind, which I have already done in the
"/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/" directory.)  Suggesting I use init-repo
is good.  I stay on my own machine.  I would thank James Cloos, too,
except the emacs/src/ directory contains C code.  I really want to
move most of the Emacs code into and below the "/usr/local/src/emacs/"
directory with the C code in the emacs/src/ directory and the Emacs
Lisp in the emacs/lisp/ directory.

The emacs/src/ directory should be directly below the emacs/ directory
and I should rebuild the emacs executable in the emacs/src directory
every day.  The lisp/ directory should be directly below the emacs/
directory, too, not separated, as it is now, by the trunk/ directory.
In addition, I would like the trunk/ and quickfixes/ directories to be
directly below the emacs/ directory as they are now, but that is not so
important.  I do not care where the .bzr/ directories are, nor where I
build.  But the main sources (and executables) should be in and under
the "/usr/local/src/emacs/" directory.  That makes sense when you speak
of the `emacs/lisp/mail' directory.  Otherwise, all of us will have to
change our language to say the `emacs/trunk/lisp/mail' directory.
Doubtless among all of you, I will figure this out.  At the moment, I
don't dare use cp or mv.  Perhaps I should use init-repo and branch to
make a copy and update instead of pull.  Please tell me what to do.

Thank you.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Karl Fogel]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:
>      http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz
>
>Thank you.  I downloaded it in 72 minutes.  I have taken longer getting
>my .emacs file OK but /usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs seems to work
>now.  My Enlightment menu does not, but we will wait on that.  I can
>start the emacs with a shell.  Next I am going to bootstrap it with the
>changes I got with a `bzr pull'.
>
>How do I avoid a shell and do it all in Emacs?

Oops, I'm not quite sure what the question is -- what's the "it" here?
Compile Emacs?  Update your local sources using bzr?  Something else?

(If it's the second one, I don't know the answer.  I stopped using VC
almost a decade ago because it didn't seem to be keeping up with the
changes in various version control systems I used.  I understand the
situation is much improved now, but I never went back to VC; I just run
'bzr' in an Emacs shell buffer.)

Best,
-K

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

    Next I am going to bootstrap it with the changes I got with a `bzr
    pull'.

Succeeds when started from a shell (as I said earlier, "My Enlightment
menu does not, but we will wait on that.").  The bootstrap took 54
minutes:

    real    54m56.306s
    user    36m5.735s
    sys     2m15.256s

(I also did some other things; hence, I spent more than an hour on the
bootstrap.)  Presumably,

    (progn
      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk")
      (compile
       "time make -k -C lisp autoloads \
        EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs && \
        cd lisp && \
        time make EMACS=/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/src/emacs"))

    (progn
      (cd "/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk")
      (compile "time make -k"))

will be quicker.  (I wish the source had stayed in the emacs/ directory
or you had said how to bring it into there; as is, my emacs/ directory
has only three directories in it .bzr, quickfixes, and trunk; no plain
files at all.)

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Andreas Schwab]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:

> (I wish the source had stayed in the emacs/ directory or you had said
> how to bring it into there; as is, my emacs/ directory has only three
> directories in it .bzr, quickfixes, and trunk; no plain files at all.)

You can name the directory anything you like.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

    bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:

    > (I wish the source had stayed in the emacs/ directory or you had said
    > how to bring it into there; as is, my emacs/ directory has only three
    > directories in it .bzr, quickfixes, and trunk; no plain files at all.)

    You can name the directory anything you like.

How?  Your answer is not complete unless you say.  Perhaps the
instructions on http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BzrForEmacsDevs
explained, but as I said, I am dumber than I was.  (I don't connect to
the Internet very often and hate using W3M mode in Emacs, so please
explain in electronic mail how to do it.)

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Andreas Schwab]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:

>     bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:
>
>     > (I wish the source had stayed in the emacs/ directory or you had said
>     > how to bring it into there; as is, my emacs/ directory has only three
>     > directories in it .bzr, quickfixes, and trunk; no plain files at all.)
>
>     You can name the directory anything you like.
>
> How?

M-x rename-file will do.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

       You can name the directory anything you like.

    How?

    M-x rename-file will do.

So I have two directories, emacs/ and emacs/trunk/, and I can rename
them to emacs/ and emacs/emacs/.  That is fine except I don't want to do
that.  I want to move emacs/trunk/ and all its lower files to emacs/ and
still be able to pull as well as I can now (should I `pull' or should I
`update'?) and still have the emacs/quickfixes/ directory.  I tried that
with `cp -R' a day or two ago and `pull' failed.  Of course, I may have
made a mistake, but I wonder.

--
    Robert J. Chassell
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Óscar Fuentes]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:

> So I have two directories, emacs/

which is the directory that holds the bazaar shared repository. The VC
info is in emacs/.bzr

> and emacs/trunk/,

which is the directory that holds your local mirror of upstream
trunk. It has its metainfo in the directory emacs/trunk/.bzr

> and I can rename them to emacs/ and emacs/emacs/.  That is fine except
> I don't want to do that.  I want to move emacs/trunk/ and all its
> lower files to emacs/ and still be able to pull as well as I can now
> (should I `pull' or should I `update'?) and still have the
> emacs/quickfixes/ directory.

This can be done, but do you *really* need that? emacs/trunk is mean to
be just a gateway for communicating with upstream, why do you need it
named as emacs/ ? Would it be okay for you to work on a regular branch
named emacs/ but keep using emacs/trunk as the gateway? If yes, do that:

# we rename the directory that holds the shared repo:
mv emacs emacs-shared-repo
# we create a regular branch for working:
bzr branch emacs-shared-repo/trunk emacs

For keeping your emacs/ branch up to date, pull on
emacs-shared-repo/trunk and then pull or merge on emacs/. It is possible
to pull directly to your emacs/ branch from upstream, but without more
information about how do you work I don't know if it is advisable.

> I tried that with `cp -R' a day or two
> ago and `pull' failed.

You probably polluted emacs/.bzr with the contents of
emacs/trunk/.bzr. I would play safe and remove everything and start from
scratch.

> Of course, I may have made a mistake, but I wonder.

-- 
Óscar

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Óscar Fuentes]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

[snip]

>> I tried that with `cp -R' a day or two
>> ago and `pull' failed.
>
> You probably polluted emacs/.bzr with the contents of
> emacs/trunk/.bzr. I would play safe and remove everything and start from
> scratch.

BTW, if you are very bandwith-constrained, you can do that without
re-downloading:

bzr init-repo new-emacs-shared-repo
cd new-emacs-shared-repo
bzr branch ../emacs/trunk trunk
cd trunk
bzr bind URL_TO_UPSTREAM_TRUNK
cd ..
bzr branch trunk quickfixes
cd ..
rm -rf emacs-shared-repo

This to replicate the recommend setup on BzrForEmacsDevs (re-check the
document just in case I forgot something).

-- 
Óscar

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Robert J. Chassell]

None of my Enlightenment menus or my Emacs scripts succeed with
emacs/trunk/.  They only work with emacs/.  They succeeded earlier.
That is why your suggestion fails.  Please remember, I want to do
everything in Emacs except for the start.

    > ... I can rename them to emacs/ and emacs/emacs/.  That is fine except
    > I don't want to do that.  I want to move emacs/trunk/ and all its
    > lower files to emacs/ and still be able to pull as well as I can now
    > (should I `pull' or should I `update'?) and still have the
    > emacs/quickfixes/ directory.

    This can be done, but do you *really* need that?

From /usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs, I was able to start different Emacs
every day, bob and root, run a .emacs file for them, and run scripts in
Emacs.  I cannot do that any more.  Why shuld I have to shift from
/usr/local/src/emacs/ to /usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/?  I don't care
where I pull from; after all, I figure I have to change one source.  But
to change many instances to a less obvious source?  That is what you are
asking me to do.

Meanwhile should I `bzr pull' or `bzr update' each day while in
/usr/local/src/emacs/trunk/?  What is the Emacs script for that?

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "Robert" == Robert J Chassell <bob@gnu.org> writes:

Robert> From /usr/local/src/emacs/src/emacs, I was able to start different Emacs

Try making your /usr/local/src/emacs/src be what the wiki page calls
emacs, still have trunk as the pristine mirror, and use a branch from
that trunk, called emacs, as your build branch.

Ie, starting from the tar Karl provided, something like:

    # untar it somewhere
    # cd to the top directory created by the untarring
    :; mv .bzr trunk quickfixes /usr/local/src/emacs/src/
    :; cd /usr/local/src/emacs/src/
    :; mv emacs old-emacs
    :; bzr branch trunk emacs

then you can do:

    :; cd /usr/local/src/emacs/src/trunk
    :; bzr pull
    :; cd ../emacs
    :; bzr merge
    # follow the post merge instructions from the wiki page
    :; make <whatever>

to do re-compiles.

All of that should work just as well in elisp as at the shell prompt.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Kevin Ryde]

Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
>
>   http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz

Is anything smaller possible for those of us at the end of a straw?
I see BzrQuickStartForEmacsDevs advises 300mb similarly.  Is some sort
of small no-history checkout possible?

Forgive my complete ignorance of bzr.  A hint on the wiki page might
help others too.  :-)

(I've struck similar size problems with big git repos.  Git doesn't seem
to be interruptable to just get some dirs or files piecemeal, the way
cvs or svn allows. :-(

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Óscar Fuentes]

Kevin Ryde <user42@zip.com.au> writes:

> Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
>>
>>   http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz

That tarball contains the source tree twice. That can be avoided if it
contained tree-less branches. The user only needs to execute `bzr co' on
the branch he wants to populate. 

> Is anything smaller possible for those of us at the end of a straw?

A tarball with a lightweight checkout would require 31 MB. The bad news
is that if your connection is so slow that a 300 MB download is
unacceptable, you will have problems with the network inefficiency of
bzr over http/sftp. A simple update after a few days can easily require
to transfer 10 MB. A commit can be very expensive too at times. A
lightweight checkout needs to contact upstream for almost everything.

[snip]

-- 
Óscar

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Lennart Borgman]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> A tarball with a lightweight checkout would require 31 MB. The bad news
> is that if your connection is so slow that a 300 MB download is
> unacceptable, you will have problems with the network inefficiency of
> bzr over http/sftp. A simple update after a few days can easily require
> to transfer 10 MB. A commit can be very expensive too at times. A
> lightweight checkout needs to contact upstream for almost everything.


Can someone please explain what is going on? Shouldn't this be fixed, or?

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Óscar Fuentes]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>> A tarball with a lightweight checkout would require 31 MB. The bad news
>> is that if your connection is so slow that a 300 MB download is
>> unacceptable, you will have problems with the network inefficiency of
>> bzr over http/sftp. A simple update after a few days can easily require
>> to transfer 10 MB. A commit can be very expensive too at times. A
>> lightweight checkout needs to contact upstream for almost everything.
>
>
> Can someone please explain what is going on?

The remote client needs to read and write data on the server for doing
its stuff. Too often it needs to read a lot of data.

> Shouldn't this be fixed, or?

There is a fix: the Bazaar smart server, so the server receives bazaar
commands, executed them and returns the result to the client. For some
reason it is not being used.

-- 
Óscar

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Lennart Borgman]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Shouldn't this be fixed, or?
>
> There is a fix: the Bazaar smart server, so the server receives bazaar
> commands, executed them and returns the result to the client. For some
> reason it is not being used.


Thanks. There seems to be some unfortunate timings then. I am
surprised that it is not fixed now. (Of course I realize people have a
lot to do, but I wonder if something else is wrong.)

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Kevin Ryde]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:
>
> A simple update after a few days can easily require to transfer 10 MB.

Ah, thanks, that'd be very borderline.  If it's potentially every commit
then it's a killer.  I wonder if the wiki could put the requirements up
front a bit more.  Without being too provocative something like

    The repo is about 300Mb.  An initial checkout will download it in
    full and may use about 1Gb of RAM while doing so.  Subsequent
    commits and updates could transfer as much as 10Mb even for modest
    changes.


"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:
>
> Maybe somebody could create a temporary mirror with a smart server on
> it for folks like you.  It could be "by invitation only" to limit
> bandwidth and server wear-and-tear.

Or beg an ssh to someone with bandwidth (and who doesn't have to pay for
it :-).

You know for all that these fancy rcs's were motivated by shortcomings
of cvs on big projects, they really don't scale well to big projects!

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kevin Ryde <user42@zip.com.au>
> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:38:27 +1100
> 
> Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:
> >
> > A simple update after a few days can easily require to transfer 10 MB.
> 
> Ah, thanks, that'd be very borderline.  If it's potentially every commit
> then it's a killer.  I wonder if the wiki could put the requirements up
> front a bit more.  Without being too provocative something like
> 
>     The repo is about 300Mb.  An initial checkout will download it in
>     full and may use about 1Gb of RAM while doing so.  Subsequent
>     commits and updates could transfer as much as 10Mb even for modest
>     changes.

But the last sentence could be blatantly misleading, it seems.  For
example, today's "bzr up" crams 185MB(!) of data through the wire.
And that's only according to the progress indicator; who knows what
else is going on on the protocol level?  My previous update was 16
hours ago, and the files actually changed on the trunk since then are
just a few:

 M  lisp/ChangeLog
 M  lisp/vc-bzr.el
 M  src/ChangeLog
 M  src/dbusbind.c

It sounds like such a massive update is due to the change in the
branches configuration in the repository: most of the branches were
moved to the old-branches and other-branches ``subdirectories''.
Maybe this is a very infrequent situation, but it does show the
potential.

So I'm not sure if we should tell anything about traffic beyond the
initial branch, whose size is more or less known and changes very
slowly.

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Kevin Ryde]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> For
> example, today's "bzr up" crams 185MB(!) of data through the wire.

Strewth.

> So I'm not sure if we should tell anything about traffic beyond the
> initial branch, whose size is more or less known and changes very
> slowly.

Well, at least somehow that it's much more than the size of a "diff"!

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Kevin Ryde writes:

 > Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
 > >
 > >   http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz
 > 
 > Is anything smaller possible for those of us at the end of a straw?
 > I see BzrQuickStartForEmacsDevs advises 300mb similarly.  Is some sort
 > of small no-history checkout possible?

It's possible, but AFAIK not without a smart server at the other end.
This is being worked on, but it's a Savannah issue with no ETA last I
heard, not an Emacs or Bazaar issue.  For status on this, see
https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?107077.

Óscar mentioned "lightweight checkout", but as I understand it this
may involve downloading the whole repo anyway, since actually
extracting files from the archive storage is done by your local bzr.
I don't think it's worth the effort for you, because of the way Bazaar
stores content in packs (compressed archives) of several megabytes.

Maybe somebody could create a temporary mirror with a smart server on
it for folks like you.  It could be "by invitation only" to limit
bandwidth and server wear-and-tear.

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Óscar Fuentes]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

> Kevin Ryde writes:
>
>  > Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
>  > >
>  > >   http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz
>  > 
>  > Is anything smaller possible for those of us at the end of a straw?
>  > I see BzrQuickStartForEmacsDevs advises 300mb similarly.  Is some sort
>  > of small no-history checkout possible?
>
> It's possible, but AFAIK not without a smart server at the other end.
> This is being worked on, but it's a Savannah issue with no ETA last I
> heard, not an Emacs or Bazaar issue.  For status on this, see
> https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?107077.

I don't think that the smart server would significantly reduce the
amount of transferred data for the first branch. What it can save is the
chit-chat associated with the sftp/http (IIRC http is worse than sftp.)
This can have a noticeable impact on the time required by the operation,
but if you are using a 56kb/s dialup connection, the 200+ MB of history
will hurt anyway.

> Óscar mentioned "lightweight checkout", but as I understand it this
> may involve downloading the whole repo anyway, since actually
> extracting files from the archive storage is done by your local bzr.

I was referring to the possibility of creating a tarball with a
lightweight checkout (this subthread is about the tarball containing the
initial setup, see above.) This tarball would be 31 MB, but the question
is if there is enough demand to justify it, or even if it makes sense:
if you are so desperate about bandwidth, day-to-day work with bazaar
will be *very* painful until someone setups a smart server as you
suggest.

[snip]

-- 
Óscar

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[Jason Earl]

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes:

> Kevin Ryde writes:
>
>  > Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
>  > >
>  > >   http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/emacs-bzr-repository.tar.gz
>  > 
>  > Is anything smaller possible for those of us at the end of a straw?
>  > I see BzrQuickStartForEmacsDevs advises 300mb similarly.  Is some sort
>  > of small no-history checkout possible?
>
> It's possible, but AFAIK not without a smart server at the other end.
> This is being worked on, but it's a Savannah issue with no ETA last I
> heard, not an Emacs or Bazaar issue.  For status on this, see
> https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?107077.
>
> Óscar mentioned "lightweight checkout", but as I understand it this
> may involve downloading the whole repo anyway, since actually
> extracting files from the archive storage is done by your local bzr.
> I don't think it's worth the effort for you, because of the way Bazaar
> stores content in packs (compressed archives) of several megabytes.
>
> Maybe somebody could create a temporary mirror with a smart server on
> it for folks like you.  It could be "by invitation only" to limit
> bandwidth and server wear-and-tear.

Launchpad has an up to date mirror of Emacs mainline.  It is behind by a
few hours, but it is much better than nothing.  It also has the
advantage of having a very short URL.

lp:emacs

Jason

Re: bazaar: "unable to obtain lock"

[David Kastrup]

bob@gnu.org (Robert J. Chassell) writes:

>     >Unable to obtain lock
>     >sftp://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/srv/bzr/emacs/trunk/.bzr/branch/lock
>     >held by bob@gnu.org on host benthic [process #13025]
>     >locked 6 hours, 10 minutes ago
>
> That was me.  (I don't connect to the Internet very often.)  I was
> trying to download for about four hours this morning, but not for 6
> hours.  It was clearly something wrong.
>
> This afternoon, I moved my /usr/local/src/emacs/ directory to
> /usr/local/src/emacs-09dec29 and restarted, following the
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BzrForEmacsDevs document exactly.  I
> gave up after a few hours, after getting 181780 kilobytes according to
> `du -s'.  According to the progress meter, the download was less than
> half done.  I have an old laptop with a half gigabyte of RAM.  The
> wireless connection I use might be broken (I cannot fix it -- it is
> not mine, but is the only way I can connect.  It works for other
> connections, as you can see:  I am SSH'd to fp.gnu.org to mail this
> message, but am writing conveniently on a different Emacs on my home
> machine.)

Try lowering your mtu on that connection, something like

ifconfig wlan0 mtu 950

or so.

-- 
David Kastrup