From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Juanma Barranquero" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:14:22 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20071230122217.3CA84830B9A@snark.thyrsus.com> <20071231131129.GA2737@muc.de> <87lk7b0zg6.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199114085 24863 80.91.229.12 (31 Dec 2007 15:14:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:45 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 31 16:14:58 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J9MLv-0000AM-8L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:14:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9MLZ-00039e-1d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9MLT-00039R-S3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:27 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9MLR-00038m-Bi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:26 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9MLR-00038j-6M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:25 -0500 Original-Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.178]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J9MLQ-0007os-OH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:14:24 -0500 Original-Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k34so7677647wah.10 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:14:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=OirzCjiEhp5DvP3A1SCJLy7eHzlLqghTZIw1NWc7PPw=; b=vH+q1/LwGubVFjCtYchemFhViKZ+Y7WvT1KjD+sTpozoyFX0aUb7DabfqpsAvm7r6+TpriKrLtiLsQZE5ZXMX8KKyLn05EvzCJKaLsb2NObPCNrnY18Fi0QBIHnwfT28RgvT/USMEtP33I3VLFeJUbs/HzV21+eX/5phPXJ1UfY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LXds4pTL3K3M9qkH5i1rod67oRfIjpC9AQjWbMKXamf290kEZy9YM6W9hYaGJnU/40GMRF9iAt8MTHstb/rucBIRjxN/FImtPHckXQVnc8cydeDJOZCq7RlIGTOpz094PG/9+q6kMAcV34KZ4HOcX5109j5FubLcNWZRyu17O5k= Original-Received: by 10.115.48.12 with SMTP id a12mr12418001wak.149.1199114062539; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:14:22 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.114.170.5 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:14:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lk7b0zg6.fsf@catnip.gol.com> Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85740 Archived-At: On Dec 31, 2007 2:24 PM, Miles Bader wrote: > Emacs has a rather small developer base, and most of the developers are > fairly busy with other things. A project with lots of developers that > are more intensely involved in development is naturally going to be more > reponsive. I don't think there's anything in Emacs that makes its developers inherently more "busy with other things", other than, perhaps, age. And then we go back to Eric's points about the Emacs' project (relative) inability to attract young developers. > Certainly the tools make _some_ difference, but I think ESR is > drastically overestimating how much of one. I think Eric is perhaps overestimating, but OTOH many comments in this thread seem a bit underestimating to me. The truth is, we don't have a crystal ball, and neither does Eric; we won't know unless/until we try it. But he's right that other big projects seem to be doing better, from a responsiveness POV. Now, every time that issue has been brought to discussion, the answers have centered about Emacs having few developers... So back to the previous point. > [BTW, one thing I think _would_ be very handy, and easy to implement, > would be an IRC channel for Emacs developers, just for those random > questions you wanna get a quick answer to sometimes... There's #emacs on > irc.freenode.net, but it's more user-level.] Which goes to show how different people's priorities are. IRC would be to me the less interesting of Eric's proposals. But I know there are projects (Subversion, for example) which make use of it with good results. In case I'm not making myself clear, which is likely: I agree with most of what Eric has said in this thread. Even if we cannot now estimate whether switching tools would be a 5% or a 500% gain in productivity, there's the almost certainly that there would be a gain, and Emacs would make a step towards attracting more people. No, I don't have the numbers to back up that; it's a hunch, like most everything else said in this thread. But the simple fact that the discussion about bug tracking software, alternatives to CVS, etc. springs regularly in this list it's itself significant. Juanma