From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Docstrings and manuals, was: Re: bug#20637: incompatible, undocumented change to vc-working-revision Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 03:17:54 +0300 Message-ID: References: <6ok2vyzwf9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <08f70cda-44be-0657-e50a-2b2c80d2c21c@yandex.ru> <87oa9dzgl0.fsf@gmx.de> <87potshczh.fsf@gmx.de> <87h9f4ghzg.fsf@gmx.de> <8737qnc8ep.fsf@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1460852305 12090 80.91.229.3 (17 Apr 2016 00:18:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:18:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Glenn Morris , emacs-devel To: Michael Albinus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 17 02:18:18 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1araPo-0004pQ-WD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2016 02:18:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36018 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1araPo-0007TO-3q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:18:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55005) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1araPY-0007QP-QE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:18:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1araPV-0005Do-If for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:18:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x243.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::243]:34839) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1araPV-0005Cr-BP; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:17:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x243.google.com with SMTP id a140so15129917wma.2; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:17:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OrsJzgnHc5ZgBqr7k6TCZUs/IiMlAgu1NB05rmXU+Ks=; b=dAD/hjNa4KRUCPGeMFrw2pafZGV6s0KyRWrwqj4Pq37528wvjYomsvfFz9CBd7ES3F NCUw96h37CLecMvl1OOsTL4OusZGaGhO3zBNEPJzcQCl0crJg1hihvCOj4ilYmzu0uJB syAoe4lmKMTcJ3/OQuccfesbSCsucP7A3hYsrq+zPhGpPryB8ohfCUUgGySGq1Ab1V9T sEXMBctTgbB4NgDKaDS0hY5k1NVQMbjhOtFYYVshf7pWhEEmFylSXusFlQLuzgqZxHDO husCbnKekp0MU6nqPjg3HrqK9SWgaUkNyXfJcJQR9l1khehXWjha78w7MmCYocA2Y/l0 BYHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OrsJzgnHc5ZgBqr7k6TCZUs/IiMlAgu1NB05rmXU+Ks=; b=k3hr0WeWHPxwk8j/RxomS8dYdSeUM3EonSYkJDWJM30GOdn1B+XKyzrMNN6JVIHTRF 91m48cd5nsaKVOED1rK4uQTz0be8izPmja/2+/IWKjiuaI/7wgB8c1srnx06EoiHwUB9 3bUotf+dS45BrjobLJhyivwSsPGVmbMO5X/cADVBwnQbZgioXnP/ROCAEATD+lo+B5fw z5ZS5fcoYaXur+IrsRBXCSFeM6n0v7OXSJiIiU7RC7GKwrt7tQ3cPFRlib0PJbsgLyoZ 7f8vrComiw8onRm3yhPCAoizvtHShEcFux2Y+do74aWZjdXVGGyrE3wnFchM5B/K1XRU sKhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXgMojJrhI4avEQOzaZir9bi4djgezz+3z0PW8RlFXmrLSOLwSk9zjcYRrcV2afGA== X-Received: by 10.194.20.193 with SMTP id p1mr29795785wje.87.1460852276621; Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ki9sm11785562wjb.37.2016.04.16.17.17.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:17:55 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 In-Reply-To: <8737qnc8ep.fsf@gmx.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::243 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:203000 Archived-At: On 04/15/2016 04:23 PM, Michael Albinus wrote: >> I disagree. The manual is the documentation for the users, to explain >> in depth, give examples, et cetera. The docstrings and VC's internal >> documentation have to stand on their own. It would be silly if the >> difference between `vc-backend' and `vc-responsible-backend' were to >> only be explained in the manual, but not in the docstrings. > > Are we speaking about different manuals? I'm speaking about the ‘GNU > Emacs Lisp Reference Manual’, and not the ‘GNU Emacs Manual’ (the manual > dedicated to users). OK, so the Emacs Lisp Reference is a counter-example. And it contains a narrative that explains different aspects of Emacs Lisp in a sort-of seamless fashion, which is great, because there's no good way to do that with just docstrings. And then it goes ahead and provides its own versions of descriptions for functions and variables that are different from the docstrings, and are often longer, but sometimes shorter (e.g. for `obarray'), and at times it seems like the only reasons for the existence of the two versions is to have docstrings in the imperative voice, and the pieces of text in the manual, in the passive voice. And then the two versions start to diverge. For instance, the docstring for `mapatoms' is rather short. The manual entry for it is longer, *and* it documents that `mapatoms' returns nil. Why would someone put that piece of information into the manual, but not the docstring, is beyond me. So, to be clear, I dislike the ambiguity that manuals that try to be all-encompassing, like this one, create about the main source of information about each function.