From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:44:41 +0300 Message-ID: References: <1c45cff0-8b33-8dd1-c385-4f8675ff4fd6@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466372711 6376 80.91.229.3 (19 Jun 2016 21:45:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 21:45:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Mats Lidell , emacs-devel To: rswgnu@gmail.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 19 23:45:04 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bEkWd-0006NJ-Rr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:45:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40158 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEkWc-0003xH-RG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:45:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44317) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEkWW-0003ry-1m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:44:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEkWQ-0004J6-0F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:44:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]:38719) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEkWP-0004Iv-PI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:44:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id r201so37380001wme.1 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:44:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ki3qI+82pB3EfAT09Bo3VeY5177Swh7WlpdRVhnAtg0=; b=BfWx7GZNIgCIoYpuP2WZ12Rpsy2C848evbi+ISNMnISveyQBEJoK8d1FEUw0B/qhne aFtAsSozvuVb8pms2TmfeqOHFpr4d5fx+vvu/EuUt7SPMc+V+ftyWZxn0XMojGLYQIo+ M/1ZO4i9daiWhSm/hHiH3VyiDUjH9i0i0fNsAxBdvd09b81SnXa7wqtCBCx0GXiWx3Y/ 5NKtG48Y2s8Kood70RJPX2sVo7EjTLCkmn45oE1PkUZY9a2wtUq6jZPuuHdb5lzPmKke H6oSQpoaK9eZYRb66Z7POE502sttlqKBAaPMc0FWiTTzP8dKtsdbsEyYwbLy+x245iit nR0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ki3qI+82pB3EfAT09Bo3VeY5177Swh7WlpdRVhnAtg0=; b=kzd6XmZtmxxKeDe6fknxfUb/PMjHlQCGaBIijq432UVJJ9eBNCCyFk33sepg4xyBHF AQczQFYy52gM/grtYrPrmS9xkQK7sQrxdFVPe+WhgyFLLQeYvrRDuegftZfKp/VzMypf Q7rSKOJCTkHuGM3UNr4NnkGiJsbFqPqGQzY0oRpXk6lTMVx6KlM3z7FzIVlUYb3zYoK2 eYXwfMAto6jHs/rbyjm1S0BbBhe3Ky5gKs05mVMlbymUV5kxcYpadGdvgeOwIVAkOwMO MsngZ6JkiwUpPQjWMKJ8sFHcuBstr06R+jIEx0JeoerlEwXlrWl9DhT/RHUTktDg05q0 xTEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIAuf7hE3lAKPUZtZ3b/BY363NCCIxcMotrMnNLQBAY7EGp/4Kbq0+p9Iw0bXFGeg== X-Received: by 10.194.242.163 with SMTP id wr3mr11402034wjc.1.1466372683953; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.173.135]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w81sm5166583wmg.20.2016.06.19.14.44.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:44:43 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204549 Archived-At: On 06/19/2016 11:58 PM, Robert Weiner wrote: > People really like to talk abstractly here, which is fun, but doesn't > help move things forward too far when you could just as easily describe > exactly what you mean. And from my side, the demo wasn't abstract enough: it described some things at a lower level, like press this, push that, instead of giving a brief overview of that all this stuff is about, and why I would want to push buttons. A button that computes a factorial is not particularly convincing, I could do that just as easily via an interactive function. > Did you find the demo useful or not? Did you > like that it seemed more of a tutorial or not? Somewhat, and no. It was overly long as a demo, it gave me a taste of understanding of what buttons mean in Hyperbole, but not why I would want to use them, as opposed to the regular tools (interactive functions and key bindings) that are already available in Emacs. Or maybe I was expecting too much. Yes, buttons that link to an arbitrary files or directories, or that launch any command look neat, but it's not very obvious what kind of new and amazing workflows they allow, if any. > There is a 150 page manual with extensive > cross-references for more detail but a few more sections are yet to be > written. I hope you can forgive if I'm not in any hurry to spend time on that. > A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the > niceties of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form. > > > Hyperbole is highly interactive, so we want people to interact with it. "Here are lots of buttons, click on them" would be fine. Maybe ease on on the terminology. You can tell the user to press S-mouse-2 without introducing the term "Action Key", etc. And halfway through, the buttons stop, and the "demo" starts describing the normal Emacs features (maybe with some minor twists). Doesn't sound like demo material. > I don't know want ACME is. But what would you be switching from? Switching from Emacs. Acme is/was a Plan 9 editor: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/acme/ > How > else can you interactively create buttons with elisp actions in Emacs? Never really felt the urge before. > - "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph > and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to > the desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions. > > > I will check. There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed > in 5.12. You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press > shift-mouse3 or vice versa to see help for the first key pressed. That would be "press", not "depress", wouldn't it? Still doesn't work, though.