From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christian Schlauer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Calc: `*' binds more strongly than `/' Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:23:51 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87y7kvxj6p.fsf@arcor.de> <87odlrkn74.fsf@truman.edu> <87tzvhcul9.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <863b2z2mma.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <55350.128.165.123.18.1176926533.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> <86ps5zuwmi.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com> <87ps5zi1h2.fsf@truman.edu> Reply-To: cs-usenet@arcor.de NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1177237687 17659 80.91.229.12 (22 Apr 2007 10:28:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:28:07 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 22 12:28:01 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HfZIW-0003IP-5z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:28:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HfZNm-0005BK-5b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:33:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HfZL3-0004GQ-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:30:37 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HfZL1-0004Fj-RC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:30:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HfZL0-0004Eg-QJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:30:34 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HfZFi-00024c-Pr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 06:25:07 -0400 Original-Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HfZFe-0007O3-Rx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:25:02 +0200 Original-Received: from finn.gmane.org ([80.91.229.4]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:25:02 +0200 Original-Received: from cs-usenet by finn.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:25:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 56 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: finn.gmane.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.98 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:69782 Archived-At: Jay Belanger writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > ... >> If there are too many existing calc-scripts that would be >> broken by such a change, fine, but if this only mostly affects interactive >> use, then changing it would make a lot of sense. > > While several people have said the current behavior is convenient for > interactive use, I would hope (and expect) that there aren't any > calc-scripts depending on this behavior. But it'd be nice to know for > sure. You are the maintainer of Calc -- do you have any contact to package authors or users of packages that make use of Calc? I only know about Org-mode, see below. What about table.el? The tables in Org-mode use Calc. That is a non-interactive use of Calc, isn't it: | Value | Percentage | |-------+------------| | 17 | | | 56 | | | 42 | | #+TBLFM: $2=$1/65*100 The `#+TBLFM:' line is a Calc-script, and some of them would break, if they rely on the precedence of multiplication, like this example. But nevertheless I think Calc's behaviour could (and should) be changed, because: - Existing tables aren't automatically recalculated when you open the file, you have to do `C-u C-c C-c' in the table. So there is no `immediate' damage. But even better: - Org-mode could keep the existing Calc behaviour for existing tables but use the `new' more standards-conforming Calc behaviour when the script line `#+TBLFM:' starts with `#+TBLFMv2:' or something similar, which could be Org-mode's new default as soon as Calc has been modified. So regarding Org-mode, nothing will break, I think. > Perhaps after the release I could add a customizable variable, > `calc-multiplication-has-precedence' (default t), and then anyone that > wants to can set it to nil and try out the different behavior. Rather make the default nil so that new users can use Calc and Org like *any* pocket calculator or *any* spreadsheet... WDYT? Regards, Christian