From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Escaping quotes in docstrings, Was: A simple solution to "Upcoming loss of usability ..." Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <87egkzg7gb.fsf@gmail.com> <558C2E25.10303@cs.ucla.edu> <558C492E.9000705@yandex.ru> <558C7DE1.4060507@cs.ucla.edu> <558C82D2.1070408@yandex.ru> <558CBA7E.7060900@cs.ucla.edu> <558D403D.303@yandex.ru> <558EDD4C.4040002@cs.ucla.edu> <558EE315.3080107@yandex.ru> <558F10FA.409@cs.ucla.edu> <558F4804.1020406@yandex.ru> <559010D6.5090905@cs.ucla.edu> <559058AD.5060504@yandex.ru> <55908355.3080407@yandex.ru> <559356D2.4000103@cs.ucla.edu> <5594813A.3000705@yandex.ru> <5594E0DB.1080702@cs.ucla.edu> <559A1C54.5030405@cs.ucla.edu> <559A6F86.2080809@yandex.ru> <559AAD27.3000403@cs.ucla.edu> <559AFCC3.3070409@yandex.ru> <559B85BE.4070303@cs.ucla.edu> <559B902D.4000906@yandex.ru> <55BC22BB.4020002@cs.ucla.edu> <55BD34B2.5060001@yandex.ru> <55BDD9B5.108@cumego.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1438543055 22784 80.91.229.3 (2 Aug 2015 19:17:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:17:35 +0000 (UTC) To: =?utf-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgV29qbm93c2tp?= , Dmitry Gutov , Paul Eggert , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 02 21:17:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLyl5-0005rZ-S1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 21:17:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56675 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLyl5-0004tP-1J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 15:17:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50759) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLyks-0004tK-MD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 15:17:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLyko-00050l-IS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 15:17:06 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:21331) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLyko-00050d-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 15:17:02 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t72JGjB5003027 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:16:46 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t72JGjEO011032 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:16:45 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t72JGjeB024306; Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:16:45 GMT In-Reply-To: <55BDD9B5.108@cumego.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:188299 Archived-At: > 1. What was purpose of the change? > To replace `' with the other one (sorry, don't have it on my=20 > keyboard)? What for? >=20 > 2. *Was it worth it*? > Considering number of people involved and time spent by those > writing and reading emails (even I'm wasting my time now on=20 > writing this email). >=20 > Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what > you are doing. Provided it is optional for users to suffer from it. Let them opt in, if they really want this behavior. At a minimum, let them easily opt out, pretty-please. I don't even see that possibility currently. How to opt out doesn't seem to be documented, at least, and lots of source code seems to hard-code your changes. We were told over and over that this would be just a healthy "experiment" and that people shouldn't react prematurely. Well, it's been several months now. Are you prepared to back this misguided feature out? =20 Or were those who decried such a gratuitous & invasive development correct, in supposing that backing-out would become next to impossible and this gross hack job would be here to stay, whatever the post-mortem judgment might be? > Everyone can do with their time what they want, but maybe it > would be good to create a Backlog for Emacs and prioritize > (at least a bit) to see what's really important and _is_ > worth the effort. +1 So far, my impression is that there have been a shiPload of deep changes that try to work around all kinds of problems that have been introduced - and to work around the problems that those workarounds have introduced... I haven't seen such an invasive change in a long time (never?). Makes Rube Goldberg machines look Occam-elegant. And for what? Just to fit the esthetic, cosmetic concerns of two or three developers? Please tell users now _how to opt out completely_, at a minimum. If letting users restore the longstanding behavior means getting rid of hard-coded hacks, so be it - please do it.